Flaring line sets for mini splits.

Stenty

I asked this question in HVAC TALK and ruffled some feathers for being DIY.

Anyway, my question is: when flaring line sets for mini spits, Fujitsu in this case, what is the consensus on the need to apply oil to the flare mating surfaces?
The Fujitsu install manual recommends it but I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere.

Ironman

Use a little of the same oil that's used in the system. In this case, I believe that would be P.O.E. But it's not applied to the mating surfaces; it's applied to the back of the flare to allow the flare nut to rotate while tightening without twisting the copper.

Stenty

Ok thanks. I'll look for POE oil.

Randy-LeeBraman

Buy rights the do have a place getting their feathers ruffled.They are suppose to be installed by a licensed HVAC mechanic,who has the License to handle the refrigerant .It really makes me mad when i see them being sold on the web which shouldn't be.
i know none of the supply house i deal with will sell to the home owner or DIY guys!!!!!

Stenty

I'm a property manager and I bought this unit from one of my supply houses, Ferguson Enterprises.

Robert O'Connor_12

You would still need a Master HVACR license. Or, at minimum CFC certification. I'm not trying to flame you on this BUT, that's a pretty basic question and probably reason your getting the grief.
The following is a question that was asked to the board of HVACR Contractors about exact same qualifications.
"Rob XXXXX, XXXXXgroup, email of June 11, 2014, property management
company employs maintenance staff for routine HVACR tasks, seeking
exemption from the HVACR license for his employees:
On June 19 2014, the Board responded that this entity is not exempt from
the requirement for an HVACR license in that this company is providing
maintenance technicians for the purpose of offering HVACR services."

SWEI

At least an EPA card (around here.)

icesailor

Then, there's all the auto parts places who sell it by the can and hoses to charge it. No questions asked.

For the average smarter guy with a Beatermobile that the AC stops working, the solution is just around the block at Auto Zone and a can of juice with the hose and gauge, instructions on how to charge it, and a couple of cans for when it stops.

They even made it idiot proof with different sized ports. You can't screw the hose on the wrong side of the system. It won't fit.

Ironman

Stenty said:

I'm a property manager and I bought this unit from one of my supply houses, Ferguson Enterprises.

Not trying to hit on you, but installing that PROPERLY requires skills, training and tools that are beyond the normal maintenance man. In fact, they're beyond a lot of HVAC "techs".

Stenty

Thanks everybody. I appreciate the responses and input.
I know my limits and feel very comfortable doing the installation.
I have the tools, vacuum pump, manifold set, YJ flaring tool, etc.
And I take the time to read and reread all instructions.

As a licensed electrician, I see many HVAC guys doing their own electrical work. I don't hold that against them at all as long as they bother to get it right and get it safe. There's no sense in calling me in to wire up a simple disconnect and circuit.

Oh, and I double checked the instruction manual, it definitely says put the oil on the mating surface. Putting some on the back of the flare makes sense too....reduce friction.

icesailor

In 1960 (+/-), I read an article in Hot Rod Magazine and my old Auto Shop teacher Mr. Wilson used to tell us that the only thing between to metal surfaces were the molecules. And no matter how smooth it appeared, under a microscope, it looks like a gravel road. Therefore, the only surface that is smooth is one that has a Lubricant on it. Like in an engine.

wogpa67

Unfortunately 410 and 134 have no epa certification requirements. thats why any one anywhere in this country can buy and sell this.

pecmsg

wogpa67 said:

Unfortunately 410 and 134 have no epa certification requirements. thats why any one anywhere in this country can buy and sell this.

Unfortunately there are no restrictions on selling equipment.

wogpa67

Anyone off the street cant buy anything with r-22 (even if anything is left as old stock). but can buy anything with r-410.

icesailor

No one wants any Government Regulations. So the cheap will prevail. No more industrial arts or vocational programs in the schools. The Private sector will set the rules and decide who can do what.

And we KNOW that the private sector would never do anything that might foul their bed.

wogpa67

i am anti gov. if you look at what they are doing to the a/c side. the upcoming water heater debacal in april is another brilliant govt f up waiting to happen.

icesailor

A 1970 Chevy got about 6 MPG. Follow a 1965 chevy to an old car meet on a Saturday Night. If your an asthmatic, your dead. From the exhaust fumes. When I grew up in LA in the late 1950's, early 1960's, the smog was so bad, we couldn't go outside during school. After all the California Air Pollution regs that the rest of the country followed so the could sell cars in California, even the "Smoke" in Boston and New York got better. Want to go back to that?

People were dying of CO poisoning from faulty installs of heating equipment, You think that everyone will do the right thing and self police themselves to make it safe? Look at some of the disasters that appear here. Or on the Wall of Shame at HVAC-talk.

No one wants any Government input or help. Until they need it. Like Hurricane Sandy, Hurricane Katrina, or when that toxic coal ash, illegally stored in a pond that was draining into a W. Virginia river used for drinking water. I like to know my water is safe to drink, and not contaminated by some yahoos dumping in to my drinking water.

Its truly amazing how little ingested lead it takes to make a little kiddo turn into a simpleton when they chew on lead paint in a house. It may be a PITA for some, but my children's children shouldn't be worrying about ingesting lead.

I eat a lot of peanut butter. I get it UPS'ed from Boston to me because it isn't sold here. Teddie Super Chunky Old Fashioned All Natural Peanut Butter. So good, sometimes I just have to go by the fridge for a big spoonful. Its nice to know that MY brand isn't on this list.

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm410533.htm

How many people died and how many years did GM know about their defective ignition switches where the key fell out and stopped the car while you were driving down the highway?

I don't trust ANY manufacturer to come clean with their mistakes. Someone has to stick for you (us). Because it won't be them.

And if you REALLY like Peanut Butter, I highly recommend it. I once saw a guy totally loose his composure in the Dennis (MA) Stop & Shop because they were out of his favorite Teddie Super Chunky. He wasn't going to be able to go to work in the AM and have his peanut butter sandwich's for lunch. Serious stuff.

Techman

I agree w/ ironman, there are lots of "professional" HVACR guys that don't do things properly. Being that things are the way they are, if you have the nerve to do the job yourself ,then you should also have the nerve to accept the responsibility when things go bad. Do you have a micron gauge to go w/ that vac pump? Got nitrogen to pressure test your perfect flares? Got a "special" flare block/yoke for those 410a flares? I oil up flare fitting surfaces, it makes a better "no leak " connection. Now , I may be opening myself to "words of wisdom" from my fellow wallies, but I use my "tele-spout oiler" oil for those surfaces. I DO NOT put any oil inside of the copper tubing, for sure. Its just another one of those "be careful" situations.I have had some superb conversations w/ Rob Yost of National Refrigerants ,being he was their Refrigerant and Refrigerant Oil Engineer Expert. That guy was my "go to guy" for real technical questions and info.Rob is recently retired. Now, lets say that I do get "a little" of the "not proper"oil into the system, what happens? What chemical reaction takes place? Remember when these new refrigerants/oils first came out? The percentage of old/new oils was 5-10% old (mineral) and the rest of the oil was POE. Those two oils do not like each other or the different refrigerants that they co-mingle with.

As far as "us's" doing electrical work,(around here) we are allowed to! But the electrical work is limited to our "trade". We cannot wire up/replace a simple on/off light switch, unless that switch is in a WalkIn box, or that switch is for a boiler. You want that fancy chandalier light installed in a WI Refrig ,then I'm your guy, but if you want that same light in your fancy home then you need a Master Electrician.

I am not aware that R134a is not covered by my EPA license, Tks, I'll check into that. R410a may not be covered by the EPA but R410a IS covered by the special "R410a" required test/license.

Hay icesailor, I believe those auto AC fittings being different sizes was to prevent "cross contaminating"the old R12 and the new R134a in the same vehicle.

KC_Jones

I think a lot of us have our opinions about licensed vs. unlicensed. Every area has different codes and restrictions. Where my father lives he can take a test and be "licensed" to do all his own electrical work on his own house and only his own house. Sounds crazy, but that is the way it is. What about all the legal unlicensed work that is being done? Does everyone think the OEM manufacturer of that equipment you are installing hires only licensed people? I work for an OEM manufacturer of Industrial refrigeration equipment, no one is licensed in the entire plant. The company has some certifications to build the equipment, but there isn't a single licensed anything in the plant. We do plumbing, electrical, refrigeration you name it. Of course we can't do any of that work on our own plant because no one is "licensed". So we can build the rooftop unit, but can't install it. Does that make sense? I design the equipment and write the manual telling the installer how to install it, but I can't install it myself. My father and grandfather worked in power plants, same deal there. No licensed people and they did pipe fitting that would make some plumbers cry. Union welders failed every test the power company threw at them, but the company welders weren't "certified" to do what the union welder supposedly could do?! In power plants they had to fend for themselves since most contractors in most trades were afraid to work on them (no offense to anyone intended). They had their own fire brigade, why? Because the fire department flat out told them they wouldn't respond to a fire. I am not posting to offend or defend anyone. Just want to state that just because you have a license doesn't mean you know what you are doing AND just because someone doesn't have a license doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. Almost everyone driving a car has a license and there are car crashes and deaths daily....just something to think about.

Ironman

icesailor said:

A 1970 Chevy got about 6 MPG. Follow a 1965 chevy to an old car meet on a Saturday Night. If your an asthmatic, your dead. From the exhaust fumes. When I grew up in LA in the late 1950's, early 1960's, the smog was so bad, we couldn't go outside during school. After all the California Air Pollution regs that the rest of the country followed so the could sell cars in California, even the "Smoke" in Boston and New York got better. Want to go back to that?

People were dying of CO poisoning from faulty installs of heating equipment, You think that everyone will do the right thing and self police themselves to make it safe? Look at some of the disasters that appear here. Or on the Wall of Shame at HVAC-talk.

No one wants any Government input or help. Until they need it. Like Hurricane Sandy, Hurricane Katrina, or when that toxic coal ash, illegally stored in a pond that was draining into a W. Virginia river used for drinking water. I like to know my water is safe to drink, and not contaminated by some yahoos dumping in to my drinking water.

Its truly amazing how little ingested lead it takes to make a little kiddo turn into a simpleton when they chew on lead paint in a house. It may be a PITA for some, but my children's children shouldn't be worrying about ingesting lead.

I eat a lot of peanut butter. I get it UPS'ed from Boston to me because it isn't sold here. Teddie Super Chunky Old Fashioned All Natural Peanut Butter. So good, sometimes I just have to go by the fridge for a big spoonful. Its nice to know that MY brand isn't on this list.

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm410533.htm

How many people died and how many years did GM know about their defective ignition switches where the key fell out and stopped the car while you were driving down the highway?

I don't trust ANY manufacturer to come clean with their mistakes. Someone has to stick for you (us). Because it won't be them.

And if you REALLY like Peanut Butter, I highly recommend it. I once saw a guy totally loose his composure in the Dennis (MA) Stop & Shop because they were out of his favorite Teddie Super Chunky. He wasn't going to be able to go to work in the AM and have his peanut butter sandwich's for lunch. Serious stuff.

@icesailor

I really like peanut butter. Where can I get some of Teddie's shipped from?

Stenty

Techman said:

Do you have a micron gauge to go w/ that vac pump? Got nitrogen to pressure test your perfect flares? Got a "special" flare block/yoke for those 410a flares?

I do have a pump and manifold set.
No, I don't have a micron gauge yet and reading reviews online it seems like the digital ones are temperamental. Any suggestions?
N2 I still need to pick up, and a Yellow Jacket 60278 flare tool...in stock at the supply house.

Stenty

icesailor said:

Want to go back to that?

I was a very young auto mechanic when leaded gas was phased out and there was all of this talk about how engines wouldn't survive and it was a crime against the consumer. And folks were hollowing their catalytic converters to "save their engines".

Well, thanks to emission laws, we can not only breathe but todays cars are faster than the muscle cars of the 60's/70's.

Now look what happened to diesels. All that push back from the industry against it but now we have 600+ft.lbs of torque plus no smoke, no fumes, and no clackity clack...all because of the need to meet emission standards.

I love peanut butter....its better than Trader Joes pb?

Ironman

Stenty said:

Techman said:

Do you have a micron gauge to go w/ that vac pump? Got nitrogen to pressure test your perfect flares? Got a "special" flare block/yoke for those 410a flares?

I do have a pump and manifold set.
No, I don't have a micron gauge yet and reading reviews online it seems like the digital ones are temperamental. Any suggestions?
N2 I still need to pick up, and a Yellow Jacket 60278 flare tool...in stock at the supply house.

You need to add a flare torque wrench to the list as the flares are required to be torqued to a specific amount. And also a digital refrigerant scale.

This ain't like grandpa's A/C.

bob_46

I am not sure about using peanut butter on flare nuts . For torque I just use crows feet .

Techman

Micron gauge, I have no compliants w/ my JB Digital Micron gauge. Be aware that this micron gauge shows its display screen when the vac gets down to the last half of the last inch of vacuum. That is around 10,000 microns and lower. Is your manifold a 3 port or a 4 port? The 3 port takes a lot longer to pull down.

Ironman

bob said:

I am not sure about using peanut butter on flare nuts . For torque I just use crows feet .

If you use good peanut butter and some gets inside the lines, the mini split will like it since all that it's had before is rice.

RobG

Stenty said:

icesailor said:

Want to go back to that?

I was a very young auto mechanic when leaded gas was phased out and there was all of this talk about how engines wouldn't survive and it was a crime against the consumer. And folks were hollowing their catalytic converters to "save their engines".

Well, thanks to emission laws, we can not only breathe but todays cars are faster than the muscle cars of the 60's/70's.

Now look what happened to diesels. All that push back from the industry against it but now we have 600+ft.lbs of torque plus no smoke, no fumes, and no clackity clack...all because of the need to meet emission standards.

I love peanut butter....its better than Trader Joes pb?

I found it at "Wally World" for $2.99 a pound. I haven't tried it but it looks darned good!

http://www.walmart.com/ip/34017470?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227022547888&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40890523472&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78820596512&veh=sem

I love food that you don't have to refrigerate.

Ironman

I found it at "Wally World" for $2.99 a pound. I haven't tried it but it looks darned good!

http://www.walmart.com/ip/34017470?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227022547888&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40890523472&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78820596512&veh=sem

I love food that you don't have to refrigerate.

Thanks Rob,
I just asked my wife to get some next time she's there. That will probably be within a day or two.

I'm gonna be buried at Walmart: that way she'll visit me at least five times a week!

unclejohn

That's funny, and I know funny.

Stenty

BluVac seems to be a favorite micron gauge based on reviews.

Nylog seems to be a preferred thread and flare lubricant and far cheaper than POE oil.

I don't see a need for a refrigerant scale since the Fujitsu is precharged and my line set is less than 1/2 of the 66' maximum length.

As far a flare torque wrench is concerned, my elbow is calibrated twice a year and has never failed but I already own a torque wrench from my motorcycle mechanic days so a crowsfoot "socket" should be all I need.

Does anyone feel strongly against the Nylog or BluVac?

Stenty

Techman said:

Is your manifold a 3 port or a 4 port? The 3 port takes a lot longer to pull down.

I bought an Imperial 4 port manifold for 410a.

Techman

Thread sealant! Let me say it like this. Who in the AC world ever needs ANY thread sealant??!!?? The suction line temp does not get into the "frosting/freezing "range. When the suction line "frosts/freezes" like in refrigeration (temps lower than 32*F)then I agree w/ using thread sealant. The "frost/freezing " causes a "glacier effect" within the threaded area. This glacier will "stress" the flare nut and "walk" the flare nut loose and then there is a freon leak. I have replaced a cracked flair nut or two in my time.
Slight correction, I should have said "the low side temp"does not get lower than 32*F, not just the suction line!

icesailor

Peanut Butter:

I've never seen it at my local Wally World. So I order it direct.

www.teddie.com

It also comes in 26 oz. plastic jars which I buy. I order 6 jars at a time. Super Chunky is my favorite. Store the jars upside down. That way, the oil is on the bottom and the peanuts are on the top. Easier to mix up. Don't pour the peanut oil off. It easily mixes and once you open it, keep it in the fridge. It doesn't separate as quickly. No added sugar, only 1 gram. Some Peanut Butters have up to 5 grams of sugar. More like eating a Tootsie Pop with a peanut butter center.

As far as I know, they aren't Chinese Peanuts. And back a couple of years ago, when they had the contaminated peanut scare, Teddy wasn't included. Which they brag about.

icesailor

"" Hay icesailor, I believe those auto AC fittings being different sizes was to prevent "cross contaminating"the old R12 and the new R134a in the same vehicle. ""

More likely because they couldn't figure out which was the pressure side and the vacuum side. They had to make it Idiot Proof with the different sizes. That you could ONLY screw the fitting on the can to the BIG fitting. First you have to find the BIG cap and fitting.

Then, there's sucking it down or looking for a leak that takes 2 years to get low enough to need service. Do they really suck it down that much? They always charge you for doing it.

Larry_52

Flare fittings are always going to be suspect even if your did everything right. Way better to cut off the pre flared end and swage your line set. Setup proper n2 purge then braze the connection. If you are going to flare use a rigid ratcheting flare that rolls the flare on an eccentric rotation. I don't care how good you are, using a standard flaring tool will not make it right. Use leak lock on the flare joint.

R410a is a very touchy. You need to pull down vacuum to 500 microns. Bluvac micron gaugeis the best gauge to get because it can be re calibrated by you and knows when it is oil fouled. You must use brand new vacuum oil in your pump to pull down and don't even try a harbor freight pump, it just won't work. You will need to pull down then purge with n2 and pull down again. Don't be surprised if you need to do this even more. if you don't do this your system will last about 5 years then your toast.

I cannot recommend the swaging of line sets enough over flares. It is just too easy to accomplish and provides the better connection. I cannot over emphasize new vacuum oil every time you evacuate a system. Good luck.

Larry_52

icesailor said:

"" Hay icesailor, I believe those auto AC fittings being different sizes was to prevent "cross contaminating"the old R12 and the new R134a in the same vehicle. ""

More likely because they couldn't figure out which was the pressure side and the vacuum side. They had to make it Idiot Proof with the different sizes. That you could ONLY screw the fitting on the can to the BIG fitting. First you have to find the BIG cap and fitting.

Then, there's sucking it down or looking for a leak that takes 2 years to get low enough to need service. Do they really suck it down that much? They always charge you for doing it.

On a 134a or r12 system what side is the vacuum side?

icesailor

"" On a 134a or r12 system what side is the vacuum side? ""

Well, that was my point. For trained monkeys being paid with peanuts, you have to take their choices away.

Every time I ever took a vehicle with AC that wasn't working properly, I never had it worked on where I didn't leave a minimum of $300.00 behind. What can I say. Its voodoo work. Like machine Code on a computer program. Smiling faces and Signs of the Devil.

I've told this story before.

On a very hot & humid day on Cape Cod, I stopped at AutoZone to get some filters. A young pulled up in an older Ford Mustang (not THAT old) with the windows down and the radio blasting for all to hear. He went inside and came out a few minutes with a bag with three canisters of refrigerant, rummaged around in the back seat or trunk, found some hose with a gauge on it, screwed it on to the can, started the engine and popped the hood. He then connected the hose to something and stood there for a while with the engine running. After a few, he takes the hose off, slams the hood down, throws the hose and can in the back, hops in, rolls up the windows, and drives away.

I realized that it was far too easy for him to have just done that for the first time. He had a lot of experience doing that.

I'm not saying that what he did was right. But in the land of the Cheap, or a student without a lot of money, it worked for him.

I had a car that would faithfully stop cooling after a 1 1/2 years. It always cost me over $300.00 to have them look for a leak (never found one) put some die in the system (never found any color, never saw anything) or some odorant in the system (never smelled anything). So, I went to Auto Zone. Even a fool like me can do it.

You can go to YouseTubes and learn the finer points of charging your car AC system.

Ironman

Larry said:

Flare fittings are always going to be suspect even if your did everything right. Way better to cut off the pre flared end and swage your line set. Setup proper n2 purge then braze the connection. If you are going to flare use a rigid ratcheting flare that rolls the flare on an eccentric rotation. I don't care how good you are, using a standard flaring tool will not make it right. Use leak lock on the flare joint.

R410a is a very touchy. You need to pull down vacuum to 500 microns. Bluvac micron gaugeis the best gauge to get because it can be re calibrated by you and knows when it is oil fouled. You must use brand new vacuum oil in your pump to pull down and don't even try a harbor freight pump, it just won't work. You will need to pull down then purge with n2 and pull down again. Don't be surprised if you need to do this even more. if you don't do this your system will last about 5 years then your toast.

I cannot recommend the swaging of line sets enough over flares. It is just too easy to accomplish and provides the better connection. I cannot over emphasize new vacuum oil every time you evacuate a system. Good luck.

@Larry‌
The service valves connect the line sets with flares on a mini split. Are you suggesting the charge should be removed from the unit, the service valves be removed or changed and new sweat ones be installed just to avoid some flare connections?

You need to give the engineers that design these units some credit for knowing what works. They have the field data of failure rates and they know that a PROPERLY done flare is preferred over the possibility of incompetent installers brazing without N2 or attempting to soft solder the lines.

FYI, I use a double flare tool on every flare on any type of flared line and I have NEVER had a leak in 15 years with this method.

Putting LeakLoc on the flare surface is a very poor recommendation since some is very likely to get into the refrigerant circuit and cause a restriction in a capillary somewhere - the very reason that the flare was chosen over brazing.

Get a good double flare tool and a flare torque wrench and learn to use them correctly. And leave the LeakLoc on the shelf when doing mini splits.

Techman

OK ,I just gotta ask. You mean that I have been making "not good freon flare connections" for more than 46 years? I really have to think about that. By not using a thread sealant on AC systems , I have been setting myself up for headacke's and failure for the same 46 years? And by using a thread sealant ,I can "cover up " my bad flare making ability, regardless of how good(or bad) my flare making ability is? Humph! My regular flare block and yoke has been with me since 1969. My r410a block and yoke has been with me since the early 90's.
Then by not doing a double or triple evacuation I will definetly kill a compressor. Damn dude, forgive me for I have been sinning! So by me personally having some AC systems & compressors lasting 20-25 years I simply got lucky? I have more than one customer (AC&R)that have not had 1 ounce of freon added in 10-15-20 years. I swag fitting ,flare fittings, solder fittings, and braze fittings.
I truly believe that whatever your choice of connections is, if done properly that connection SHOULD last for many,many, many years. Some of the "mechanics" that I interviewed for hiring told me they would only guarantee their solder/braze connections for a month or two. Really?
All of this is just a discussion and not meant as anything else.How about a beer?, it's 1600 hrs somewhere.
Hay icesailor, in an auto AC system ,they do not operate in a vacuum. They do operate around 30-40*evap temp , r12=30-36psig : r134a=26-35psig: stableized conditions.

KC_Jones

Hatterasguy said:

Ironman said:

FYI, I use a double flare tool on every flare on any type of flared line and I have NEVER had a leak in 15 years with this method.

The entire automobile industry depends on double flares to ensure that the brake system performs as designed and does not leak.

If it is good enough for them with 750 psi, you can certainly bet it's good enough for you.

Ever see a leak on an automotive double flare? I haven't. Only when I try to get them apart will the problems develop.

I have seen gauges installed on automotive systems and witnessed pressures as high as 2500 PSI and no problems. As you said these are double flares which are even more difficult to do, but hold up just fine. Honestly I am not sure why anyone would have issues with a properly made up flare connection. Saying one is easier to mess up than another just makes zero sense to me. ANY connection can be messed up if not done properly. From my experience one can much more easily mess up a braze than a flare. Just my opinion.

Techman

Mr Hattersguy we(ACR ) people HAVE TO pull a vac down to 350-500 microns on every system. The moisture in our systems is addressed when the vac is pulled down below 10,000 micron, so at 30,000 microns the moisture is NOT removed at all. Rounded off 1" of vac is 25,000 microns. Rounded off, 30" of vac = 750,000 microns.So pulling out 740,000 microns just starts to address the moisture situation.
ironman , my hat is off to you! I have the auto double flare kit, I think I might just have to try that on ACR.