Dropped, offset pitched header, contractor needs critiques!

Fred

I would definitely open that small main up to 1.5 inches all the way. I could understand if it dropped in size at the end of the main to become a return but not on the front of the main.

JudySweetland

Fred said:

I would definitely open that small main up to 1.5 inches all the way. I could understand if it dropped in size at the end of the main to become a return but not on the front of the main.

Thanks Fred, will do!

RobG

Are you going to stick with those thread protector couplings?

JudySweetland

RobG said:

Are you going to stick with those thread protector couplings?

Ya know, i asked the supply house about that because they do look exactly like thread protector couplings. They deny they are protectors only. They stated they are cleared for gov't use. I went to another local supply house and they supplied me with actual couplings. I now have enough of the true coupling to finish but i will have to use 2 of the 4 that were installed already. What is your opinion, we have never used them on gas piping. Is it imperative to change out the two remaining? We take them to the scrap yard if we don't have threaded pipe we use for gas pipe to protect.

RobG

Are they threaded all the way through or is there a gap in between the threads? I have never seen a genuine coupling without a hub.

JudySweetland

RobG said:

Are they threaded all the way through or is there a gap in between the threads? I have never seen a genuine coupling without a hub.

They are threaded all the way through, no gap between.

RobG

Then it is a thread protector. (never trust the counter guy at the supply house). It may or may not leak, I would replace it. The problem is that it's not a tapered thread.

JudySweetland

RobG said:

Then it is a thread protector. (never trust the counter guy at the supply house). It may or may not leak, I would replace it. The problem is that it's not a tapered thread.

Good thinking Rob, i did not know thread protectors weren't tapered, makes sense now though. I will change them out and fuss at the counter crew when i return them. Thanks for the sharp eye!

don_9

JudySweetland said:

Abracadabra said:

Judy, that small main has it's own return right? With a vent at the end of the main? It's not counter-flow?

That main is pitched up from the existing tie in tee, after 20' it feeds radiation. This main has an inverted bucket trap at its end, the return is piped in just below the main, comes back dry to the wet leg at the boiler. After i sent the pic i removed more insulation from the pipe it starts out as 1.25" then increases to 1.5" where it turns a corner about 12' from the existing tie in tee. I am adding Gorton #2 vents to both mains as there was only one Hoffman 75 on the return leg for all the piping. The other larger main has an F & T trap btw. Should i eliminate the 1.25" section of pipe and change it to 1.5" pipe like the rest of that main? I am also curious why there is an inverted bucket trap on this small main and an F&T on the other larger main. Please give me your thoughts.
Thanks for your comments Abracadabra!

Hi Judy.I am sure the bucket trap is there bc that all the supply housed han stock at the time.personally i would stick an f&t on it size to load of course.If you are going to keep it dont forget to prime it or she will pass steam then you will wondering why your other rads are not heating.

JudySweetland

Hi Judy.I am sure the bucket trap is there bc that all the supply housed han stock at the time.personally i would stick an f&t on it size to load of course.If you are going to keep it dont forget to prime it or she will pass steam then you will wondering why your other rads are not heating.

Don, thanks for the answer. I was going to remove both the traps to check and clean and prime before start up, sounds like i should install an F&T in place of the bucket trap. I did wonder about that but was concerned the original installer had something specific in mind that i am not thinking of or know. I thought perhaps it had something to do with that main being small and relatively short compared to the larger and much longer main that has the F&T on it. Could be your right, less costly, installer had one available, seems to happen all the time with other types of HVAC systems/installs. Since the two traps operate differently from one another what would the largest benefit be for the system and homeowner by installing the F&T?

Thanks Don for your comments and suggestions,
Judy

don_9

I like them bc they are fast to pass condensate n for me that always a plus when i am trouble shooting.I am assuming you are in the ghent area n if so it has been my experience with enough venting capacity on your distribution system a vapor stat instead of the pressuretrol does a great job with boiler cycling n fuel bills.Good luck with the skimming.

KC_Jones

Haven't heard anything from Judy in a while. I was wondering how the install was going?

vaporvac

Thinking the same thing.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

Haven't heard anything from Judy in a while. I was wondering how the install was going?

Strange! I posted on this thread last week to ask how she was making out and she responded and posted a couple new pictures but I don't see my post or her response.??? She said she had maybe a week left to wrap things up and would post final pictures when she is done.

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

Haven't heard anything from Judy in a while. I was wondering how the install was going?

Hey guys! Sorry, have had a family emergency and haven't had time to update. THE BEAST IS RUNNING!! Home owners say it has never been quieter and a rad that has never heated is now hot! Here are the issues left to resolve:
1. I installed a Gorton 2 close to the end of the 1.5" dry return. It is blowing steam, not sure why. But there is a bucket trap at the end of the steam main that is improperly installed. Dan suggested a loop seal, which i have not done yet. There are two mains on this boiler, this is the smaller of the mains.
2. An upstairs rad gets very hot on the return elbow right away, the supply side inlet at rad remains cold. The rad has a number 40 vent (doesnt belong on this two pipe system) which is in the constant failed open position. In the off cycle i can hear gurgling condensate at the rad return elbow. It is as if the return leg side pipe is attached to the supply main. I still have to look into this
3. I installed 2 Gorton #2 on the 2" dry return main, neither of which seem to be venting air, or else they are venting very slowly at an exit velocity that is difficult to feel.
4. There is still some hammer on start ups. There is an FT TRAP (also installed improperly) on this main, again Dan suggested a loop seal.

I have pre cleaned the boiler (hot water and Gerry Gills copper wand set up) and have skimmed twice. I did remove the bucket and Ft traps and cleaned before start up (they were jam packed with crud). I primed the bucket even though it is installed wrong. The last several days the VXT shows no additional make up water has been added. So i know condensate is making its way back to the boiler. The sight glass ranges from 1/4 to 1/2 full, with minimal surging.

After this cold snap we are having i will install loop seals and see what changes. Any ideas comments about the above 4 issues are again appreciated. I will be posting thermal imaging pics if i can figure out how. Below are pics of the bucket and ft trap as they are installed now.
Thanks again all,
Judy

vaporvac

Concerning #4: I need to review your past posts, but I seem to recall this was a 2pipe vapor? Does it have a system equalizer? Mine banged like crazy on start-up. When I put in the new boilers I disconnected that and about a gallon of water came out. Turns out it was over 2 inches out of pitch. Since fixing it, there's been nary a sound. I'd just guess there's a say somewhere in those lines.

Fred

Hi Judy. As to your Point 1. The Gorton must be bad or it would close on heat of around 140 degrees. Switch it out. Is that radiator return that gets steam hot on the main that has the steaming Gorton on it? Are there other radiators on that same Main that function properly?
2. I'm wondering if those traps are preventing air from getting to the other two gortons? Are the Gortons before or after the traps?
3. The radiator that has the cold supply, is there any kind of orifice inside that connection that may be plugged up? My suspicion is the steam pressure on the return side (Making that return pipe steaming hot) is preventing air from being pushed out of the radiator and that radiator vent (if it's on the return side of the radiator may be closing so quickly as a result of the steam that it is virtually useless. The question is why is that return steam hot. possibly the result of the steaming Gorton on the return?
4. Some of the other guys will chime in on these issues but I'm also thinking that even with the Loop Seals, the Gortons will need to be before them, otherwise I don't know how air will vent.

JudySweetland

vaporvac said:

Concerning #4: I need to review your past posts, but I seem to recall this was a 2pipe vapor? Does it have a system equalizer? Mine banged like crazy on start-up. When I put in the new boilers I disconnected that and about a gallon of water came out. Turns out it was over 2 inches out of pitch. Since fixing it, there's been nary a sound. I'd just guess there's a say somewhere in those lines.

Vaporvac, yes 2 pipe system. The banging comes from end of mains at the improperly installed bucket and FT traps. Plans are to install loops seals and give them a try. The equalizer pipe is ok.

JudySweetland

Fred said:

Hi Judy. As to your Point 1. The Gorton must be bad or it would close on heat of around 140 degrees. Switch it out. Is that radiator return that gets steam hot on the main that has the steaming Gorton on it? Are there other radiators on that same Main that function properly?
2. I'm wondering if those traps are preventing air from getting to the other two gortons? Are the Gortons before or after the traps?
3. The radiator that has the cold supply, is there any kind of orifice inside that connection that may be plugged up? My suspicion is the steam pressure on the return side (Making that return pipe steaming hot) is preventing air from being pushed out of the radiator and that radiator vent (if it's on the return side of the radiator may be closing so quickly as a result of the steam that it is virtually useless. The question is why is that return steam hot. possibly the result of the steaming Gorton on the return?
4. Some of the other guys will chime in on these issues but I'm also thinking that even with the Loop Seals, the Gortons will need to be before them, otherwise I don't know how air will vent.

Fred, thanks. I will swap out the Gorton with one of the others. The other two gortons are both on the dry return close to the boiler, and yes the FT trap may be preventing them from operating. The odd radiator: although this is a second floor radiator we believe, (have to verify 100% yet) based on visual pipe configuration the radiator is actually piped in wrong!
I wondered how the air would get out too. I am thinking of installing gortons on the mains before the loop seals and also at the ends of the dry returns. I will let give an update tomorrow evening after we have installed the loop seals. Thanks again, judy