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Dropped, offset pitched header, contractor needs critiques!

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Ok here is a pic or two of the just about completed header for this boiler i have been working........on, seems like forever. I plan to place a 3" to 2" bushing on the left elbow that is pointing down to make my equalizer. The riser on the right needs a union to complete the header piping, so ignore that please. The header is pitched at 1" in 24". Too much? Someone mentioned this am I need 15" between the left end of the dropped header and where the equalizer pipe starts its vertical descent, is that right? I could not find a reference for this dimension.

Can anyone spot something i can do that would be better, or that i am doing completely wrong. All Comments are appreciated, i'm thick skinned. Thanks.
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Comments

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Here is one more pic from farther away.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Actually you only need about 1/2 inch of pitch over the entire length of that drop header, 1/4 inch probably would do it. I can't tell where the Mains are going to tie into the drop header. I think I would have turned the elbow on the left riser at about 45 degrees and crossed over the top of the boiler and dropped down and tied it into the drop header in the area before those couplings, right next to where the other Riser connects to the Drop Header. That would give you the rest of the length of the Drop header to tie in your mains and you probably could eliminate that offset, put the elbow on the end and put in your equalizer.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    That's at least a 3" header.
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Someone mentioned this am I need 15" between the left end of the dropped header and where the equalizer pipe starts its vertical descent, is that right?

    I mentioned that you should keep 15" between the main and the last riser. The equalizer can be right next to the main. This requires the left side riser to cross over the top of the boiler and connect to the header near the elbow on the right side.

    In the photo, I don't see where you'll be connecting the main if the equalizer is going to connect to the open elbow on the left side.

    Also, didn't you plan to use a 4" header? You've got those huge 3" risers that do a great job but it is all defeated with the 2.5" header. The steam will pickup way too much speed when going from twin 3" to a single 2.5".
    I don't think it was your comment i was referring to, but that was this am which seems like a long time ago.... Anyway, i mean't to say where the elbow points down there will be a tee to go to the 2 mains, one of the mains is 3" and the other one is 1.25". After the tee i will install a nipple, elbow and bush the elbow from 3" to 2" for the equalizer piping. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the input.

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Fred, i will draw that out and give it some thought. I did not mention the elbow was really to be a tee to tie into the mains, then a nipple then an elbow with a 3" to 2" bushing for the equalizer. I appreciate your ideas and give more thought to them. Thank you.

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited December 2014
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    Yes, you definitely don't want to tie multiple Mains into a single Tee off of the Header. Each Main needs to tie into the Header. They can be right next to each other anywhere between where the risers tie in and before the equalizer. 15" is recommended but if you can get 10", it will be fine. Actually, if you have room, you can extend the left side of the header out past the end of the boiler, put an elbow on it like you have, bush it down and then put a street 45 or a nipple and a standaard 45 on and angle it back to where the equalizer will connect to the Hartford loop, using another 45 at that end.
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Fred said:

    Yes, you definitely don't want to tie multiple Mains into a single Tee off of the Header. Each Main needs to tie into the Header. They can be right next to each other anywhere between where the risers tie in and before the equalizer. 15" is recommended but if you can get 10", it will be fine. Actually, if you have room, you can extend the left side of the header out past the end of the boiler, put an elbow on it like you have, bush it down and then put a street 45 or a nipple and a standaard 45 on and angle it back to where the equalizer will connect to the Hartford loop, using another 45 at that end.

    Have alook at the pic below if u would. It shows how the existing 2 mains were "tied" to one another originally. So i should run both mains to separate tees on the header, correct. I'd rather repipe and learn now instead of scratch my head and curse later.

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    If you are thinking of a single T supplying two mains, do not proceed this way. Both mains must run to the header and be on separate tee's.

    Take a look at the photo again. You can see the 15" distance I was referring to and you can see both mains entering the header on their own dedicated Tee.

    Fred was suggesting exactly what this photo shows. Tie in the left side riser all the way over to the right side so the steam enters on one side of the header and leaves on the opposite side of the header (this photo is opposite of yours).

    Crapp, before ya know it I might learn sumpin'. Thanks.

  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    Why not get rid of both of those elbows in the header between the risers and have the left riser tie into the header with a tee where your one elbow is now? That's a pretty aggressive pitch on the header, don't really need that much pitch. Pitch the header by swinging one riser up and the other riser a bit the other way, that'll give you the bit of pitch you are looking for.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Yes, you want to drop both Mains down to the header individually.
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Fred said:

    Yes, you want to drop both Mains down to the header individually.

    Thanks all, i will repost pics after the repipe to ensure it has been done correctly. Thanks for your help.

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
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    Are we watching the birth of a future "steam person" in the making? You get good at this you might get yourself some more business in your area...and save some steam systems in the process.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    The instructions for my boilers clearly stated the distance between the main and the last riser and then the equalizer. On mine it was a multiple of the header size with a minimum distance. Maybe it's just hard to find. Jstar once mentioned that if one is upping the riser height and diameter, as well as the header size, this distance can be kept smaller if one doesn't have the space. However, since you have the distance, there's no downside to using it.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    KC_Jones said:

    Are we watching the birth of a future "steam person" in the making? You get good at this you might get yourself some more business in your area...and save some steam systems in the process.

    Yes, but my birth is full of "labor" pains! Consider me a born again steam piper, or better yet a "piper" cub ;).

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    I mentioned that you should keep 15" between the main and the last riser. The equalizer can be right next to the main. This requires the left side riser to cross over the top of the boiler and connect to the header near the elbow on the right

    Hatterasguy, i am going to repipe as you, Fred & others have suggested. I have been trying to find a mention of the 15" dimension........cannot find it and am curious, its not in the Install manual from Utica and i cannot find it in the LAoSH either. I am going to use the 15" dimension regardless but please let me know where u got this dimension. Thanks.



  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Fred said:

    Yes, you definitely don't want to tie multiple Mains into a single Tee off of the Header. Each Main needs to tie into the Header. They can be right next to each other anywhere between where the risers tie in and before the equalizer. 15" is recommended but if you can get 10", it will be fine. Actually, if you have room, you can extend the left side of the header out past the end of the boiler, put an elbow on it like you have, bush it down and then put a street 45 or a nipple and a standaard 45 on and angle it back to where the equalizer will connect to the Hartford loop, using another 45 at that end.

    Ok will do. Thank you.
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    vaporvac said:

    The instructions for my boilers clearly stated the distance between the main and the last riser and then the equalizer. On mine it was a multiple of the header size with a minimum distance. Maybe it's just hard to find. Jstar once mentioned that if one is upping the riser height and diameter, as well as the header size, this distance can be kept smaller if one doesn't have the space. However, since you have the distance, there's no downside to using it.

    Ok, the Utica install manual gives no such dimension! Couldn't find it in the LAoSH either. I will use the avail space though. Thanks.

  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    Can't wait to see the new pics! This is like header design by committee :D
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    @ vaporvac - that's interesting. Could you post a picture of that part of your manuals, or a link to the online manual? Thanks.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
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    Not sure if it would help, but that 15" dimension doesn't need to be straight does it? I have seen (and mine is this way) using an elbow on the header which adds length to the header, but helps limit the real estate you use up because the piping stays close to the boiler. Just a thought and like I said I am not sure if this idea helps you or not.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    @ vaporvac - that's interesting. Could you post a picture of that part of your manuals, or a link to the online manual? Thanks.

    Will do when I get home. I also recall it giving a minimum distance to the equalizer, as well. We discussed this at length prior to my install... if I have time I'll look for any relevant comments.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    What's with the dog-leg in the middle of the header, or am I seeing something wrong?
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Paul48 said:

    What's with the dog-leg in the middle of the header, or am I seeing something wrong?

    It went around the flue connection. Doesn't matter now! Repipe in progress.

    KC_Jones
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
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    I really like her attitude! Get it right no matter what it takes! A wise man once taught me if you step on the right foot the first time doing it wrong after that gets more difficult as time goes by. My hats off to you!
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    JudySweetland
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Ok here is the repipe, obviously incomplete. Does anyone see wrong or that needs improvement? Right to left: the first tee will have the left riser installed in it. The second tee from the right will have the 1.25" main installed in it. The tee on the far left past the edge of the boiler will be tied into the 3" main just under the flue pipe you see. The equalizer will be elbowed down bushed from 3" tp 2" and tie into the wet return and Hartford loop. Comments and suggestions welcome. Thank you.

    "Quote" rel="Abracadabra">Can't wait to see the new pics! This is like header design by committee :D

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Perfect!!

    Nice work!!

    Thank god!!! Thanks for looking so quickly and responding :)

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
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    That is looking really good! I like it!
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    KC_Jones said:

    I really like her attitude! Get it right no matter what it takes! A wise man once taught me if you step on the right foot the first time doing it wrong after that gets more difficult as time goes by. My hats off to you!

    THANK YOU KC!

  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    So far so good! Glad to have on the board. Don't abandon us when you're all done. :)
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    vaporvac said:

    So far so good! Glad to have on the board. Don't abandon us when you're all done. :)</blockquote

    I won't abandon you guys, there is so much to learn, eventually i will study enough and work other steam systems enough to give back!
    Can't thank you enough!

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited December 2014
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    I think one of Dan's books recommends the 15 inch spacing between the last riser to the Main and the equalizer but I think we've seen many installs where it is down around 10 inches and still works fine. Maybe @Dan Holohan can comment on this issue.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    That is looking Fantastic Judy!
    JudySweetland
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Judy...In that first picture, just above where you tied in the system. There is a white pipe that appears to go into the riser....what is that?
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Fred said:

    That is looking Fantastic Judy!

    Thanks for the passing grade Fred, appreciate it!

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Paul48 said:

    Judy...In that first picture, just above where you tied in the system. There is a white pipe that appears to go into the riser....what is that?

    Paul i think what you are looking at is a small main that is tied into the larger steam main. The plan is to get rid of that tie in and repipe the smaller main to the second tee from the right on the dropped header. If that is not what you are referring to let me know.

  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    Judy,

    Unfortunately I think I see a problem.
    You need more pipe! :D

    Looking good!
    KC_JonesJudySweetland
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Yeah...That's the one. It also looks like it's pitched counter-flow. It's amazing what some people do to these poor old systems.It's great to see that you're making it right. You might want to explore that main with the steam pros. It's small(diameter-wise), and they can offer advice. You'll be like a proud parent when it's done......"Look what I did".
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    Judy, that small main has it's own return right? With a vent at the end of the main? It's not counter-flow?
  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Judy, that small main has it's own return right? With a vent at the end of the main? It's not counter-flow?

    That main is pitched up from the existing tie in tee, after 20' it feeds radiation. This main has an inverted bucket trap at its end, the return is piped in just below the main, comes back dry to the wet leg at the boiler. After i sent the pic i removed more insulation from the pipe it starts out as 1.25" then increases to 1.5" where it turns a corner about 12' from the existing tie in tee. I am adding Gorton #2 vents to both mains as there was only one Hoffman 75 on the return leg for all the piping. The other larger main has an F & T trap btw. Should i eliminate the 1.25" section of pipe and change it to 1.5" pipe like the rest of that main? I am also curious why there is an inverted bucket trap on this small main and an F&T on the other larger main. Please give me your thoughts.
    Thanks for your comments Abracadabra!

  • JudySweetland
    JudySweetland Member Posts: 120
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    Paul48 said:

    Yeah...That's the one. It also looks like it's pitched counter-flow. It's amazing what some people do to these poor old systems.It's great to see that you're making it right. You might want to explore that main with the steam pros. It's small(diameter-wise), and they can offer advice. You'll be like a proud parent when it's done......"Look what I did".

    Paul thanks for the observations, that main pitches up and feeds radiation at about 20' . There is an inverted bucket trap at its end with a dry return coming back to the boiler. This is a 2 pipe system. You're right about checking in with the steam pros here, i would have made a bevy of major errors without their input.