Going commando!

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

If you are a perfectionist and you NEVER want to see the boiler cycle on pressure (which I thought yours never did), you put a two stage gas valve on it and you now have PERFECTION.

Mine doesn't cycle on pressure?
Except maybe during a recovery @ 8"WC but that's not even a "cycle" that's a rest.

If I ever get around to putting 1 or 2 TRVs in my kitchen I'll be doing a 2 stage gas valve. Otherwise it's not worth it.

The video above was taken with 50sqft of radiation removed because that TRV is closed 90% of the time. Sometimes a second radiator is off which means I'm down by 100sqft and I still don't see much above 1" WC.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

What's money to a perfectionist?

Nothing.

I just don't have any.

ChrisJ

MarkS said:

A true perfectionist would get a modulating burner, whether he needed one or not.

I don't see anyone offering to create one for my EG-45.

Steamhead

BobC said:

I know Tim tried using the EZ-Gas in a staged setup and it sounds like the required complexity made it unfeasible. I don't know if he was varying the pressure or pairing orifices to get different flow rates.
Bob

The problem was that with the way the EZ-Gas is currently built, there is no way to adjust the air supply along with the gas supply. So if you drop to low fire, the gas/air mix goes too lean.

Carlin has the solution on their H2L oil burner- a variable-speed fan. We can hope..............

nicatniter

Hey @ChrisJ, Can you point out the model number for your Dwyer -8" to +16" WC gauge?

nicatniter

Thanks, I'm on it! I might try going siphonless for this one too (Webster System R 2-pipe)

ChrisJ

Another example of siphon problems.
Other members have mentioned having this same offset on their 3.0 Wika gauge. It seems like the longer you wait, the worse it gets. I recall one member breaking his gauge because he kept re-zeroing it without removing it.


http://youtu.be/8MLrASd2G7Q

KC_Jones

So the idea Chris had of no siphon and a straight pipe got me curious....so I tried something. I blew the water out of the siphon on my gauge and have been running it like that for several weeks. The siphon (on my boiler) never gets hot as near as I can tell never sees steam and has stayed bone dry this entire time. The gauge responds much more smoothly (similar to Chris's) and I never see the "vacuum" that I used to see. I can't recommend this to anyone, but in my application with my gauge mounting this is working flawlessly. Just wanted to post another related experiment.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

So the idea Chris had of no siphon and a straight pipe got me curious....so I tried something. I blew the water out of the siphon on my gauge and have been running it like that for several weeks. The siphon (on my boiler) never gets hot as near as I can tell never sees steam and has stayed bone dry this entire time. The gauge responds much more smoothly (similar to Chris's) and I never see the "vacuum" that I used to see. I can't recommend this to anyone, but in my application with my gauge mounting this is working flawlessly. Just wanted to post another related experiment.

In your case, the pigtail may be staying dry because you have all of your gauges, vaporstats mounted on an antler (I think). For anyone who has a pigtail connected right into a boiler tapping, condensate will fill the pigtail in a matter of a few cycles (again I think). Is your Antler also mounted on top of a pigtail?

KC_Jones

No the antler is directly off the boiler with a 90° elbow. Yes I agree I have some height that is helping me. This is why I say I can't recommend it. I can say that the first tee off of the 90° on my antler stays cool enough I can touch it anytime I want, even after a 4° setback in the morning. Since everything is sealed and full of air the steam doesn't go there...it's got less resistant places to go...again on my system.

ChrisJ

Any time I've blown my siphon out it always refills. It takes a while but it does every time.

Fred

Makes sense. My 0 - 3PSI gauge will go into the negative zone after a long heat cycle but within 5 to 10 minutes zero itself out again. Here for the last few days (the weaather has been milder and heat cycles shorter, the gauge sits at 1 OZ. and stays there. I think pressure is locked in between the gauge and the water in the pigtail. I'm tired of watching that stupid gauge to ssee what it's going to do next.

KC_Jones

Fred said:

. I'm tired of watching that stupid gauge to ssee what it's going to do next.

lol....it gets obsessive after a while. I have noticed anytime I am in my workshop (which is A LOT) and the boiler fires I stop and go look at the gauge and the boiler. Nothing really to see I just watch it.

Fred

Youknow what, I just looked at the spec sheet for the WIKI low pressure gauge and it says: Temperature Error
Additional error when temperature changes from reference
temperature of 68°F (20°C) +0.4% for every 18°F (10°C)
rising or falling. Percentage of span.
The other thing I realize is that it does not have a built in syphon. If it did, I think that would likely shield it from the residual pressure in the pigtail, that causes it to show a slight positive pressure on boiler idle.
Thoughts?

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Youknow what, I just looked at the spec sheet for the WIKI low pressure gauge and it says: Temperature Error
Additional error when temperature changes from reference
temperature of 68°F (20°C) +0.4% for every 18°F (10°C)
rising or falling. Percentage of span.
The other thing I realize is that it does not have a built in syphon. If it did, I think that would likely shield it from the residual pressure in the pigtail, that causes it to show a slight positive pressure on boiler idle.
Thoughts?

The Wika mounted on a direct pipe setup showed no problems just like the Dwyer.

Captain Who

It seems like the problem must be due to changing volumes of water within the pigtail and the problem will be worse the smaller the airspace volume between the slug of water in the pigtail and the gauge. When you initially mount the gauge it is of course reading dead on zero and there is a bit of water in the pigtail that defines a trapped airspace between the gauge and the water. If that airspace gets smaller (compressed) the gauge shows a positive pressure. If that airspace gets larger (expanded) the gauge will show a negative pressure. Now say that during operation of the boiler some of that water evaporates so the slug of water is smaller. It will have to show up as a negative pressure on the gauge even though the pressure on the boiler side of the pigtail may still be at 0 psig, because the weight of the water wants to even out the heights on each side of the pigtail. That results in a downward pull on the gauge diaphragm and the gauge diaphragm exerts an upward pull on the water column. This effect or error is proportional to the % change in volume of the airspace and will be much smaller if you have a long nipple on the pigtail to which you attach the gauge. The opposite can occur if during operation of the boiler, the water in the pigtail gets added to by extra condensate and you will get a positive pressure error on the gauge which again is proportional to the % change of volume of airspace. In both instances, having a vacuum break like that schrader valve will rezero the gauge and allow the water columns to go back to equal height until something acts to change the volume of water in the pigtail again.

ChrisJ

Captain Who said:

It seems like the problem must be due to changing volumes of water within the pigtail and the problem will be worse the smaller the airspace volume between the slug of water in the pigtail and the gauge. When you initially mount the gauge it is of course reading dead on zero and there is a bit of water in the pigtail that defines a trapped airspace between the gauge and the water. If that airspace gets smaller (compressed) the gauge shows a positive pressure. If that airspace gets larger (expanded) the gauge will show a negative pressure. Now say that during operation of the boiler some of that water evaporates so the slug of water is smaller. It will have to show up as a negative pressure on the gauge even though the pressure on the boiler side of the pigtail may still be at 0 psig, because the weight of the water wants to even out the heights on each side of the pigtail. That results in a downward pull on the gauge diaphragm and the gauge diaphragm exerts an upward pull on the water column. This effect or error is proportional to the % change in volume of the airspace and will be much smaller if you have a long nipple on the pigtail to which you attach the gauge. The opposite can occur if during operation of the boiler, the water in the pigtail gets added to by extra condensate and you will get a positive pressure error on the gauge which again is proportional to the % change of volume of airspace. In both instances, having a vacuum break like that schrader valve will rezero the gauge and allow the water columns to go back to equal height until something acts to change the volume of water in the pigtail again.

That's my opinion as well.

ChrisJ

After deciding to change my burner to a the next size smaller I figured it would be a good idea to get a better gauge as well.

I have a new 0 - 2" WC Dwyer Magnehelic on the way.
Right now the plans are to mount it in the wall under the thermostat in the livingroom. That may change, but I do like the idea and it took a lot of effort to get the wife to ok it. I don't think she realizes how large a 4" gauge is yet.

I'm expecting this gauge to perform fantastic commando.

Mark N

It's still not good enough to have a pressure gauge mounted under the thermostat. You need an app so you can check it with your smart phone.

ChrisJ

Mark N said:

It's still not good enough to have a pressure gauge mounted under the thermostat. You need an app so you can check it with your smart phone.

I'll get a webcam and point it at the gauge.

Mark N

Well if thats the case just leave it in the basement.

Captain Who

"After deciding to change my burner to a the next size smaller I figured it would be a good idea to get a better gauge as well."

So you still have a two stage burner, but you recently changed it out for a smaller one in the hopes of getting it to use the lower stage? What exactly did you have before and what do you have now?

That gauge is awesome. If it wasn't so $$ I'd get one too. I like that it can withstand 15psig. When my steam is collapsing when my ptrol is cycling during recovery, I bet that if I blinked I'd miss the needle going from 2in. to 0in. on that gauge though lol. It would be very cool to find out what my system is operating at when it is steaming normally though (not recovery), because it doesn't even register a thing on my 0-3psi gauge. Mine is the type that the 0 is on the peg though, which makes it next to impossible to calibrate the 0 and I wouldn't try.

Will you need some sort of snubber with that, or do you think that you'll be OK since you have gone Commando?

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

Mark N said:

It's still not good enough to have a pressure gauge mounted under the thermostat. You need an app so you can check it with your smart phone.

I'll get a webcam and point it at the gauge.

You need to make a website for your boiler. Webcam to watch the boiler and the gauge in the living room. Notifications for all "members" so we can watch the gauge when the boiler is firing.

Captain Who

I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that I would find that fascinating

BobC

Have you thought through the possibility that lowering the firing rate might have unintended consequences? It will certainly take longer to raise steam, will that wipe out what savings you garner by reducing the firing rate?

Because you have an atmospheric boiler I would think a two stage firing solution is best because you can raise steam quickly and back off to let the boiler simmer until the thermostat is satisfied.

Bob

KC_Jones

BobC said:

Have you thought through the possibility that lowering the firing rate might have unintended consequences? It will certainly take longer to raise steam, will that wipe out what savings you garner by reducing the firing rate?

Because you have an atmospheric boiler I would think a two stage firing solution is best because you can raise steam quickly and back off to let the boiler simmer until the thermostat is satisfied.

Bob

The problem is how does he control the 2 stage firing? His pressure is so low, is there a device out there to reliably control a 2 stage scheme? His down firing of that boiler isn't really a down fire in the classic sense. Weil Mclain sells that boiler from the factory with that configuration...I know because I have what he is turning his into. I can verify getting a head of steam up is a non issue. I might be a hair slower than him, but I don't think it's much. In addition my old boiler was the same as his and I ran it for 10 years with 2 burners removed which would drop another 25k input from what he is doing now. It wasn't an issue for me the system ran just fine and I wouldn't say it was "slow" just more gentle. He is definitely experimenting, but won't it be interesting to see what results he gets? I am really curious myself!

ChrisJ

BobC said:

Have you thought through the possibility that lowering the firing rate might have unintended consequences? It will certainly take longer to raise steam, will that wipe out what savings you garner by reducing the firing rate?

Because you have an atmospheric boiler I would think a two stage firing solution is best because you can raise steam quickly and back off to let the boiler simmer until the thermostat is satisfied.

Bob

I have considered that it may have consequences.

It will without a doubt run longer because I still need X amount of heat to make up for whatever heat the building is losing. But as I said, that is the entire point.

The primary object was to slow the system down and make it easier to control a narrow temperature band (0.5F).

As I said in my converting EG-45 to EG-40 that is the entire reason. A beneficial side effect will be it will take longer to raise any sort of real pressure making very long burn times possible if I ever want to.

ChrisJ

Captain Who said:

"After deciding to change my burner to a the next size smaller I figured it would be a good idea to get a better gauge as well."

So you still have a two stage burner, but you recently changed it out for a smaller one in the hopes of getting it to use the lower stage? What exactly did you have before and what do you have now?

That gauge is awesome. If it wasn't so $$ I'd get one too. I like that it can withstand 15psig. When my steam is collapsing when my ptrol is cycling during recovery, I bet that if I blinked I'd miss the needle going from 2in. to 0in. on that gauge though lol. It would be very cool to find out what my system is operating at when it is steaming normally though (not recovery), because it doesn't even register a thing on my 0-3psi gauge. Mine is the type that the 0 is on the peg though, which makes it next to impossible to calibrate the 0 and I wouldn't try.

Will you need some sort of snubber with that, or do you think that you'll be OK since you have gone Commando?

No, no two stage burner, never had one. Just going from 150,000 input to 125,000 input. Both burners are engineered by WM for this boiler so no worries about problems, it'll work just like it should from the factory.

The Magnehelic claims to have a built in silicone dampener. The weight of the needle assembly alone would be enough to keep it from flying all over the place I'm sure. So no plans for a snubber of any type at this time.

Mark N

The way I would control the low fire would be with a temperature activated switch at the end of the main. Once steam has filled the mains drop to low fire. Stay in low fire for the rest of the call for heat. Temp drops while the boiler is off the temp switch opens up, next call for heat you fire at high fire until steam is at the end of the mains and repeat the cycle.

ChrisJ

Mark N said:

The way I would control the low fire would be with a temperature activated switch at the end of the main. Once steam has filled the mains drop to low fire. Stay in low fire for the rest of the call for heat. Temp drops while the boiler is off the temp switch opens up, next call for heat you fire at high fire until steam is at the end of the mains and repeat the cycle.

See to me, pushing the steam through the mains faster than necessary means more energy wasted than necessary producing that pressure. Sure, it speeds preheat up but does that really matter?

My plan for high\low fire was a temperature switch on the boiler. Once she started boiling drop it down. My fear was what happens if the boiler is still above whatever temperature, and trys to relight. I'd need something that forces it to high fire during ignition.

To be honest, messing with gas burners is not something I feel comfortable with. This is why, at least for now, I chose to go with an off the shelf proven solution to drop 25,000 btus.

To be honest, I suspect a high\low fire setup may still be possible activated by outdoor temperature or perhaps outdoor temperature and indoor temperature to do a faster recovery.


The main problem isn't my heat. It's that I like experimenting with it and seeing if anything can be improved.

Mark N

You aren't producing hardly any pressure now. Also one would think since you're running at 2cph that you would like to get steam to the end of mains as quick as possible. At 2 cph do you experience any cycles where steam does not make it or barely makes it to the rads before the boiler turns off? In my mind if there are any cycles where the the preheat is more than 50% of the total on time, that is a wasted cycle. Less than half the BTU's expended went to the rads. Since the pickup is 33%, the preheat should be around 33% of the call for heat. So if it takes 5 minutes to get steam to the end of the mains, you should run about 15 minutes.

ChrisJ

Mark N said:

You aren't producing hardly any pressure now. Also one would think since you're running at 2cph that you would like to get steam to the end of mains as quick as possible. At 2 cph do you experience any cycles where steam does not make it or barely makes it to the rads before the boiler turns off? In my mind if there are any cycles where the the preheat is more than 50% of the total on time, that is a wasted cycle. Less than half the BTU's expended went to the rads. Since the pickup is 33%, the preheat should be around 33% of the call for heat. So if it takes 5 minutes to get steam to the end of the mains, you should run about 15 minutes.

The Ecosteam stops the system from shutting off before I get the proper amount of heat 99.9% of the time. That may happen on rare occasion when it's fairly warm outside, maybe in the 50s or 60s but I don't think ever when it's typical winter temperatures out.

The time it takes for the steam to get to the end of the longest (29') main varies. If you include the time to get the water boiling, I typically see around 200 seconds but it can be as low as 60 seconds as I saw yesterday during a recovery. If I had to give a number, I would say from the time the boiler starts steaming it takes me around 30 seconds or less to get steam to the end of the 29' main under most conditions.

ChrisJ

The thread unfortunately has gone off course.

This is the Going Commando thread. Not the downfiring thread.

That can be found at : http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1364925#Comment_1364925

ChrisJ

Installed the Magnehelic tonight and to my surprise plumbed directly in it was way too fast. Almost couldn't see the needle!

http://youtu.be/t9MWkyCTxzo


So, after some thinking and messing around I believe I have the solution for this sensitive gauge.





And a video showing it in action with the 1/4" ball valve acting as an adjustable snubber.


http://youtu.be/4TxwoRWR2YY

SWEI

I'm guessing you might have some harmonics happening in that long pipe. A buffer (wide spot in the road) might be able to damp them if that is the case.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

I'm guessing you might have some harmonics happening in that long pipe. A buffer (wide spot in the road) might be able to damp them if that is the case.

I assumed it was just turbulence from the water boiling.
How big if a wide spot are you thinking, perhaps using two 1/2" to 1" couplers and a short 1" nipple? The 18" length of pipe is 1/2".

SWEI

What's the biggest bell reducer you can get with a 1/2" or 3/4" small end? I know they make them in 1-1/2" x 1/2". Two of those plus a 1-1/2" x 3" (or so) nipple at the top of the the vertical run might work.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

What's the biggest bell reducer you can get with a 1/2" or 3/4" small end? I know they make them in 1-1/2" x 1/2". Two of those plus a 1-1/2" x 3" (or so) nipple at the top of the the vertical run might work.

I saw 1 1/4" and there may be 1 1/2".

Do you think this will help?

The ball valve acting as a snubber seems to work well. I also came up with an idea while driving to work this morning (sitting in traffic for 2 hours) to take an 1/8" plug and drill a tiny hole in it and install it in the low pressure (atmosphere) side of the magnehelic. I could then slowly drill the hole larger and large until it responds the way I want.

That is, of course unless you feel this isn't just from the water boiling but is being caused by something else. The 16"WC gauge isn't bothered by it.

SWEI

I see at least two different harmonics in the movement of the needle in your first video. The amplitude is reduced in the second video, but both harmonics are still clearly visible.

What's causing the harmonics? An FFT analysis of the needle position would allow you to design a chamber that would optimally damp them. For now, a "wide spot in the road" should act as a kind of low pass filter and smooth things out.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

I see at least two different harmonics in the movement of the needle in your first video. The amplitude is reduced in the second video, but both harmonics are still clearly visible.

What's causing the harmonics? An FFT analysis of the needle position would allow you to design a chamber that would optimally damp them. For now, a "wide spot in the road" should act as a kind of low pass filter and smooth things out.

Hmm
There is a chance what you're seeing is an effect of either my phone's camera, or youtube. I don't think it has any rhythmic patterns like that in person.