Thoughts on replacing near-boiler piping vs. boiler

Gryfon19

When a previous owner of our house had a new boiler installed, it appears the plumber used copper for the near-boiler piping. Now, aside from the adjustment to a bit of banging and hissing (we were new to steam) we were OK with our heat over the last 4+ years. We recently had the basement finished and a couple pipes shifted over - they are feeding steam the appropriate radiators upstairs fine.

We're considering having the near-boiler pipes replaced with iron BUT my worry is that only a couple years from now the boiler croaks (it's currently ~20 years old) and we end up replacing the boiler and the near-boiler pipes because, as my understanding goes, those are essentially considered "part of the boiler".

I would love to experience steam heat without knocking, banging, hissing, etc. and assume replacing the near-boiler copper pipes with the black pipes should accomplish this. Truth is, we've also thrown around the idea of switching to something like electric baseboards due to the frustrations with steam at the moment...

I'm wondering what others' similar experiences might have been replacing the copper for iron pipes? Thanks in advance!

nicholas bonham-carter

Properly done piping using a drop header configuration will make any future boiler replacement much easier/cheaper.
What make of boiler do you have now?
If there are no system leaks, causing constant fresh water addition to the boiler, it may go for 35 years!--NBC

Fred

If properly installed, nothing, nothing beats the quiet comfort of steam and electric baseboard would likely be my last choice. As far as your current boiler is concerned, it is a toss up as to how much life it has left. Mine is 32 years old and still going strong, have have 50 year old boilers, others have failed in 10 to 12 years. A lot depends on how they have been maintained over the years.
Having said that, if it were mine and I knew I needed major near boiler repiping, I'd probably opt for a new boiler along with the repipe but I definately would keep the steam. If that's what you decide, make sure you get a real steam pro to install it and that your contract outlines all of the requirements for the Near pipeing and boiler, things like radiator EDR survey and verification, matching the boiler EDR to that survey, Type of pipe materials to be used (black threaded pipe and fittings) Riser sizing, header configuration and sizing, equalizer sizing, Hartford loop, skimming (at least 3 skims spaced 3 to 4 weeks apart after the initial one to be dome before commissioning the boiler), installing a permanent skim port and full port valve. installing a Vaporstat instead of a Pressuretrol, installing both the required 0-30PSI Pressure gauge and a 0_3PSI gauge, Maintaining the Normal water level at the same height as the current one to nsure wet returns stay wet, checking all Mains and run-outs for leaks, sags and pitch, checking and installing adequate Main Venting (at least the equalivent of the capacty of one Gorton #2 vent per 20 feet of 2 inch Main. Decide if you want/need King Valves on the Mains to allow you to isolate the boiler for service, testing etc.

Gryfon19

The boiler is a Bryant 235A manufactured in 1987.

Everything mentioned above is familiar (I have Dan's "...steam heat" book), but finding a contractor completely competent to do the work right it what really concerns me...

If I knew someone in the area who had a boiler installed properly and without issues I'd probably be far less anxious about going down the path of replacing the pipes, and quite possibly the boiler as well.

Mark N

That boiler is nearly 28 years old.

Gryfon19

True. I mist-typed above. I meant to say nearly 30 years old. Maybe it is time for a new one...

Mark N

I hope that when you had your finished your basement you left some way to access your steam pipes and main vents. Usually it is not advisable to move steam pipes.

Fred

Where are you located? There are some Steam Pros on this site that will ease your anxiety. Check the "Find a Contractor" tab under the System Help Center. Many on this site can tell you if they have any experience/knowledge with a specific contractor.

Jamie Hall

The near boiler piping is, to a large extent, part of the boiler, as you have noted. That, however, does not mean that all of any ne work you did would have to go, particularly if you opted for a drop header.

However, although the copper probably isn't helping any, just replacing it, pipe for pipe, with black iron might not do that much for the knocking, banging and hissing of which you rightly complain (steam shouldn't do that). There are some first steps you should take, which are relatively inexpensive, which might help a lot.

You don't mention whether this is one pipe or two pipe. In either case, make sure that the boiler pressure setting is correct -- cut ou at 1.5 psi, cut in at 0.5 or as low as you can go with your control. Then, check every inch of every pipe to make sure that they all have adequate slope, with no sags or low spots which could possibly trap water (hopefully you can still do that with the finished basement?). Those two things alone may help a lot with hissing and knocking. And are pretty well free.

Next thing is to investigate venting. This differs between one pipe and two pipe systems, and within the broad two pipe system group, but the general principle is the same for both: generous venting on the steam mains (and dry returns, if you have them) to allow steam to get to all parts of the system easily and quickly, and then, if you have one pipe seam, choosing the vents on the various radiators to get the heat you need from each one (on two pipe this is done with orifices or throttling valves).

You might post a picture or two of your existing boiler piping; it may be that there are particular problems which we miht see.

Gryfon19

I'm in MA, just north of Boston. I found two contractors when doing the search but I'm not clear if contractors listed pay to be there or whether they're they based upon forum members' experiences?

@Jamie Hall‌ I'm fairly certain there's insufficient venting on the main, which I'm sure contributes to the hissing we hear. Although, not something I think I can resolve - would need a plumber I can trust to add additional vents. It's a one pipe system and the copper near-boiler piping isn't exactly accurate. There's a few photos in this Discussion. So part of the consideration with replacing the copper piping is to then get the layout correct, too. All the more reason I want to be sure to find someone I can trust in the area.

HarryL

I think going with something like @Fred suggests is your best way to getting a steam pro. Anyone that quibbles over basics, or whose eyes glaze over when reading it, isn't the right person for the job. You might start with it in the form of questions and see how the responses line up with expectations to avoid someone just saying yes to get the work.

Jamie Hall

There is, I believe, a small fee for having one's listing in Find a Contractor. However, most of the folks who are listed also post on these forums, so you can get some feel that way. I know Charles Garrity personally, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend him. I know of Bob Gagnon from his postings over the years, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend him either. The other companies in your area I can't explicitly vouch for personally, but I would venture to say that if they have taken the trouble to list here, they are streets ahead of the average already.

BobC

If your going to replace that boiler try contacting JA Phinney in Milton -he knows what of he speaks.

Bob

David Nadle

I think to re-pipe that boiler correctly you'd have to get those 30 year old plugs out of the other side and have two risers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the labor to repipe that boiler is most of the way towards just installing a new boiler.

If I were you I would try everything else first. Skim and clean the water, insulate the mains and correct their pitch, replace old vents. Find a pro that will do everything the right way and replace the boiler and piping together.

j a_2

Unrelated to steam, when the basement was redone was a makeup air calc. done….Steam problems that arise after construction work usually are the big part of the problem...

Gryfon19

Thanks for the recommendations folks.

I definitely want to try to get at least one plug out of the side of the boiler to setup a skim port. I'm almost certain oil still in the boiler is causing significant surging in the sight glass and likely also sending out water with steam, causing the LWCO to shut off the boiler repeatedly during a single cycle.

Once I can get that under control, I'm hopeful the system will at least behave as it did before. In other words, it runs a full cycle without shutting off and reduces the amount of hissing. Clanging is limited, maybe just a little more than before having work done.

The good thing is that I've already re-insulated the main and replaced old vents (though I suspect the main could use additional vents). So if getting the oil out doesn't work then I feel I'm left with replacing the pipes and most likely the boiler at the same time. MA currently has a 0% loan program for replacing steam boilers which makes it much less impactful.

KC_Jones

Is that incentive to replace a steam boiler....with a new steam boiler or to remove the steam system?

Gryfon19

Having invested in shifting the steam pipes (as opposed to already removing the steam heat), I'd very much prefer to replace the near-boiler piping in hopes of having a system that works like it should, and quietly for that matter. If it did that then I'd be very pleased. The only real drawback there is if the boiler dies within the next few years it would end up being work that mostly needs to be done all over again, which is why I'd consider replacing the boiler itself while we're at it.