Balancing The Temperature in 2 Apartments

KC_Jones

Hmmmm that is weird. Either your gauge is bad or the pigtail is clogged on the pressuretrol or the pressuretrol is possibly bad. I would get that checked out ASAP. The pressuretrol is a safety device and you don't want to mess with things like that. If you can get to it and you are comfortable doing the work you could check the pigtail yourself. Just need to remove the pressuretrol and you could blow into the pigtail. If you can easily blow through it it's clear. Also while it's off make sure there isn't any gunk in the port on the pressuretrol. Use a paper clip or something like that to make sure the hole on the bottom is open. The other thing to do is have a low pressure gauge installed. I personally would lean towards a bad reading on your gauge, because those 0-30 gauges are notoriously inaccurate. That being said everything I stated above should be part of yearly maintenance.

PrestoJim

Thanks KC . I'll try the service and pick up a low pressure gauge. I think I'm gonna replace the guts in the crossover traps too.

vaporvac

PrestoJim said:

I started working with a HVAC guy but he seemed baffled by most of the system. He brought a guy from the far southside to have a look and he said this is the guy Bunnell calls when he's stumped. He talked about removing that "Illinois" device and that Hoffman pot and installing a boiler feed pump and tank.
I'd like to have you come out if you can squeeze us in. How do we contact each other?
</blockquote
I'm taking those suggestions with a grain of salt. I've rarely seen any of the REAL pros suggest yanking out original devices and installing a feed pump and tank! In fact, I don't EVER recall reading that. Get abracadabra out to help you since he's offering.
Is that a vacuum system? If so, get it working and keep it.

PrestoJim

It's a vapor system. No vacuum.
I am hoping Abracadabra has an opening sometime.

PrestoJim

Pressuretrol was clean, pigtail clear.

PrestoJim

That was gauge reading while system was cool. Looks faulty to me. Any suggestions on type and brand gauge? 0-5psi?

Jamie Hall

PrestoJim said:

I started working with a HVAC guy but he seemed baffled by most of the system. He brought a guy from the far southside to have a look and he said this is the guy Bunnell calls when he's stumped. He talked about removing that "Illinois" device and that Hoffman pot and installing a boiler feed pump and tank.
I'd like to have you come out if you can squeeze us in. How do we contact each other?

Something is very fishy in that story -- "Bunnell stumped" just doesn't make sense.

Think about it. The system worked with the Illinois device and the Hoffman pot in there, once upon a time. The idea is to get it working aain, not put a kludge (which a boiler feed pump and tank would be) on it.

KC_Jones

http://www.valworx.com/category/low-pressure-gauges-25-lower-mount
I got mine from here. I would go at most a 0-3 PSI gauge not a 0-5 PSI. And yes it appears as though that gauge is toast. Keep it on there though as many places require it for code compliance. I agree the story that was fed to you from that contractor sounds fishy...I have never heard of a steam man wanting to make a system more complicated nor wanting to remove those old devices unless they can not be replaced or repaired. Even if abandoned (functionally) many will leave those devices in place for historical purposes.

PrestoJim

The gentleman said there's a seesaw type rocker inside and that the valve seats can be lapped in a limited number of times. Bound to fail, irreplaceable.
I don't know that it isn't working. Upon startup air comes out of the Gortons on the top as the system builds steam.
I'm gonna order a vaporstat and low pressure gauge and maybe the guts for the crossover traps for starters.
My bad, that pot isn't Hoffman." It's a Trane" direct return trap.

PrestoJim

Hey KC, I ordered gauge from your link. Thanks.
Suggestions on vaporstat. Honeywell 2-16oz. or 0-4lb?

Fred

Most of us use the 16 ounce Vaporstat but either one will work for you.

PrestoJim

Thanks Fred.

PrestoJim

vaporvac

I'm glad you clarified on the Trane return trap because I thought I was losing my mind. I have a Trane system with a similar pot and I'm guessing yours was originally set to work as a naturally induced vacuum. It shouldn't be too hard to return to one once your other issues are resolved. I think my HW VSTAT is 1-4lb. Colleen
After re-reading the description of you rads, you probably have a Trane system. They developed those rads in the 20s. @ChicagoCooperator recently posted about his system, so you might want to check that out: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151859/the-great-convector-replacement-caper

Abracadabra

PrestoJim said:

It's a vapor system. No vacuum.

I am hoping Abracadabra has an opening sometime.

I sent you a private message with my contact info. Feel free to give me a call or shoot me an email.

Abracadabra

PrestoJim said:

.. removing that "Illinois" device and that Hoffman pot and installing a boiler feed pump and tank.

No.. don't do that. That would be a mistake.

PrestoJim

Interesting vaporvac. I'll get some pics of ours. Have to get into tenants apartment. Ours are a bit different.

Abracadabra

Stopped by and took a look today. Looks like he has a Trane Vapor System with in wall fin-tube radiators.

Gerry Gill has a doc on his site about this system.

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetFile?fid={147F7FA3-3A99-470D-B6F5-B1545E40406A}

Steamhead talks about the Trane direct return trap here:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/126715/trane-2-direct-return-trap

Current gauge is toast, and I'm assuming that since it starts at 2.5psi with boiler off, and it hits about 5psi, it's not really working as a "vapor" system at the moment But who knows what pressure it's really hitting. PrestoJim said he's going to add a vaporstat and a new gauge. I'm going to setup some time later this week and check out the traps on the 2nd floor unit. I'm thinking that some of them will need work. Main venting is ok, could be better but mains fill up relatively quickly. Doesn't look like any steam is getting past the bucket trap. He said he'll measure radiators and we'll figure out what attached EDR is.

Does anyone have a table for EDR calcs for trane fin-tube? I seem to remember something like 1 sq.ft. per inch?

Can anyone confirm?

Thanks

Abracadabra

Pic of fin tube:


Oh.. and even though it says "Bath" on it, it's in a common area hallway. Go figure.

SWEI

Jamie Hall said:

PrestoJim said:

He brought a guy from the far southside to have a look and he said this is the guy Bunnell calls when he's stumped. He talked about removing that "Illinois" device and that Hoffman pot and installing a boiler feed pump and tank.

Something is very fishy in that story -- "Bunnell stumped" just doesn't make sense.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Fixing something that Dave "couldn't" by converting to a pumped return is even more suspicious.

nicholas bonham-carter

What bad luck for you to have found a sizeable percentage of contractors in town who were either dishonest, or incompetent
When you get the pressure down to ounces, and can verify it with a good low-pressure gauge, you will be on the right track.
If you were heating with coal, then the Trane trap would need to function properly in case Igor put too much into the boiler, and ran the pressure up.--NBC

PrestoJim

As stated earlier "Dave" wasn't taking any new clients.
I was lucky to post here and find Abracadabra.
Good gauge and vaportrol coming Friday. It's a good start.
We were looking for help calculating EDR for these funky fin tube rads, see pics.

PrestoJim

Still looking for EDR calc for old, possibly Trane, 1920's fin tube convectors. About 440" of tube in 17 convectors.

Abracadabra

Just an update. 2nd floor (which was the cooler one), had one failed trap on a substantial convector, the valve on the bathroom was closed. Seems it would open about 3/4 turn then stop. Had to give it a bit more oopmh to get it all the way open. About a 1/2 of a convector in the living room was covered/blocked by a sectional sofa. After adding a vaporstat cut-out @ 12 cut-in @4, the second floor seems toasty. I'll wait to hear back from PrestoJim. Boiler is seriously oversized. Pressure hits 12 oz. in about 1 min from steam hitting the mains. My guess is at least 50% oversized.

PrestoJim

As NBC posted earlier, no shortage of bad contractors here.
Lucky to find a good honest and very experienced steamer here on the post. Thanks Abracadabra! Haven't had a chance to monitor the system but no complaints or comments from my tenants.
Hats off to all the posters as well, quite a wealth of experience!
Not much we can do about the way oversized boiler...
Merry Christmas everybody....

PrestoJim

Thanks! I'm gonna look in to that.

Abracadabra

Hatterasguy said:

PrestoJim said:

Not much we can do about the way oversized boiler...
.

Actually, you can.

Consider a two stage gas valve. Relatively low cost addition that can reduce the boiler output to 60% of rating. You turn your 250K BTU boiler into a 150K BTU boiler via control of the gas. No downside.

Hatterasguy,

I've previously talked to WM about downfiring their atmospheric boilers by modifying the gas train and they don't guarantee/recommend/condone anything. Any contractor that would modify the gas train would have to accept any responsibility for such action. WM's larger LGB's come with a hi/lo option, I don't believe Jim's boiler was ever offered with this option.

gerry gill

Is the boiler return trap still working? if so it won't matter what pressure the system operates at, as the boiler return trap effectively eliminates the active 'B' dimension.

Also if the boiler is sized to the edr as per todays standards it is about a third to big for use on convectors. That was questioned in the 1930's but today there is only one established sizing criteria.

Two stage firing would be a nice addition here.

ChicagoCooperator

Did you ever find the EDR charts for the Trane's? They are in the library on this site.

PrestoJim

Call me stupid, how do I find the library?
Just got my Gorton #2 today from Supply House. I figured I would replace a leaking #1. Gotta make room in the ceiling.
Can't wait to see how that works out
Still trying to see if there's a work around to stage fire this boiler. Definitely not going to smaller boiler, I'm stuck with what I have for now. This thing's not that old.
Running great with vaporstat, thanks Abracadabra.
I can't wait to see the gas bill, -10 coming tonight. No complaints from tenants.

ChicagoCooperator

Here you go:

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/trane-heat-cabinets/

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/how-to-select-and-install-trane-concealed-heaters/

One of those will have the EDR information - don't remember which one, but both are useful. One thing to note which is in the brochures is that the convectors need to be "tight" to the chimney/chase/flue or they will lose effectiveness - this happens often if they have been replaced (one of mine has this problem).

PrestoJim

Ah, The Museum, cool stuff. Thanks

ChicagoCooperator

Yes, they were in the museum, not library. There are several other non-Trane versions as well.

Abracadabra

Jim,

good to hear it sounds like tenants are happier. especially considering the temps we've been having. We can talk about setting up a 2-stage gas valve after "emergency" calls slow down a bit.

PrestoJim

Yes, I figured you would be slammed. Yeah, everything is good.
Been to busy to time cycles or install Gorton #2. It's huge.
Thought about Mepco but just decided to replace leaking #1 with #2. Might we be able to lower cut in and differential?

PrestoJim

Sending back bad Gorton#2 to Supply House.
I don't understand their testing standards at Gorton. I've seen the posts about bad #2. I forgot to blow in the bottom before I installed it but when I heard the remaining #1 screaming for help it had to be bad.

Abracadabra

Ya... sometimes a few slip past. blowing into it with orfice up (open) and then with orfice down (closed) is something you get used to doing. I don't assume any vent works out of the box.

KC_Jones

I had a Gorton #1 that appeared to be messed up out of the box, just wouldn't close when I first ran the system. On the second cycle it was suddenly fine and has been good for months now. I am guessing some crud or something, but it was weird that it did it on the very first cycle.

PrestoJim

Well, I was going to put old Gorton #1 back on until replacement #2 gets here. I tried again to blow into the bottom to see if anything changed. It didn't. Then u tried blowing into the top and the valve inside unstuck. Ta da! It's working.
To anyone else who thinks they have a bad new one should try this first.

PrestoJim

Visited the building today. Thought I would turn up the temp a couple degrees, looks like a cold week coming.
What did I notice when I turned up thermostat?
Gorton #1 hissing! #2 closed again. Contacting Gorton to see what the problem is.