what size boiler?

Gordy

Yes I can help you if I have information.

icesailor

Gordy said:

ICE what exactly are you trying to say????

If you can't comprehend what I said about converting gravity systems into pumped systems, and the problems with doing it, and that there are two ways to do it, both using boiler water modulation, I guess you're lost.

Its worked for me. I understand the concept. You don't?

maybemark

ice
sometimes it take some people a little longer to understand. I appreciate any help you can give
thanks
mark

Gordy

Come on Ice cube I understand all of your deep quatrains. The problem is you have to think about the OP not put them to popping a tab of Dramamine , and having to lay down with one foot on the floor to stop the spins. That's all I meant don't get all lathered up.

icesailor

Sorry. But the only way I learned it was by understanding it. We're all born knowing nothing except what is genetically programmed in to us before birth.

Those old dead guys are my hero's in life. They knew ship that I want to know. Like how could the Inca's divert a river from one side of a valley to the other, build sluiceways and canals so they could irrigate the other side of the valley, all pitching and running steadily, and without a transit?

Someone figured it out. Like how I drilled 40' of holes, pitched through uneven lumber to run a 2" piece of copper to a main in a cellar. When done drilling, you see only one hole The same way that Cranberry bogs are absolutely flat and level. The flood the bog, wait for it to freeze, and spread a thin layer of sand on the ice. The ice melts when it gets warm, the Cranberries like the new sand, and they did it that way when the old dead guys from Cape Verde brought their Armstrong back hoe's and filled in depressions. Water seeks its own level.

Zman

@icesailor‌
Why do you think a high mass boiler is a good idea for an incredibly high mass system?
Do you think that this home has a heat loss higher than 30 btu/ft?
Do you believe mod/cons should be installed on any job?
If there was ever a place for a mod/con, here it is.
The only real question is what size?
Just curious....

Gordy

icesailor said:

Sorry. But the only way I learned it was by understanding it. We're all born knowing nothing except what is genetically programmed in to us before birth.

Those old dead guys are my hero's in life. They knew ship that I want to know. Like how could the Inca's divert a river from one side of a valley to the other, build sluiceways and canals so they could irrigate the other side of the valley, all pitching and running steadily, and without a transit?

Someone figured it out. Like how I drilled 40' of holes, pitched through uneven lumber to run a 2" piece of copper to a main in a cellar. When done drilling, you see only one hole The same way that Cranberry bogs are absolutely flat and level. The flood the bog, wait for it to freeze, and spread a thin layer of sand on the ice. The ice melts when it gets warm, the Cranberries like the new sand, and they did it that way when the old dead guys from Cape Verde brought their Armstrong back hoe's and filled in depressions. Water seeks its own level.

The only difference between then and now is resourcefulness. They only had so much to work with between knowledge, equipment, and there wasn't much to do back then, but gather food, make shelter, sleep, and reproduce, maybe a sacrifice ritual now, and then.

Today we have many options to do all the afore mentioned, and spend a great amount of time mulling over the most cost effective way to do it. In a nut shell to many choices. Just like keeping a structure warm to exist comfortably many ways to do it pick one. Back then there was only a couple it took less time to pick one.

maybemark

ice
yes, this 35 year old burnham has been pretty much trouble free, but, i have been paying the gas company big bucks.
This year I am on a budget plan, $241.00 a month even in the summer to eat this house. i need to do something different, even though this has been pretty much trouble free.
Mark

SWEI

We have yet to see savings of less than 30% when replacing a conventional boiler (sans ODR-controlled mixing) with a properly sized and commissioned mod/con. When the old boiler is bigger than 2x the design day heat loss, that number is closer to 50%. The truly bad cases see savings of 70% or more.

maybemark

when i say 2600 sq ft, i am saying this on the high size.
No, this is not a small house, but i would not call this a big house at all.
My big question is, 85k, is this the right size for my house with a heat loss of about 76k, not including an unheated basement
thanks
mark

SWEI

maybemark said:

My big question is, 85k, is this the right size for my house with a heat loss of about 76k, not including an unheated basement

I believe you've had about six affirmative answers to that question.

maybemark

swei
your right, there have been people saying it is proper size, then the compainies that want to sell me a boiler locally, say i need 175k.
So, can you understand why i might have this in question?
I ordered the boiler, i still can change now, just want to make totally sure this is proper, I can't afford to make a mistake
mark

Gordy

Your biggest hurdle will be your installer if he is not comfortable with this boiler.

Make sure he reads, and understands, and follows the I/O manual before he starts. There is all the manuals available online at Lochinvars web site. Have him read through the I/O manual.

He will also have to do combustion analysis on the commissioning of that, or for that matter any boiler.

SWEI

We always try to get historical fuel consumption info -- though it's tough to do well for LPG, given the non-deterministic delivery schedules. We build a spreadsheet using that together with heating degree-days, working towards a BTU per degree-day per square foot metric. Using that number, we have a shot at predicting results based on the building age and type of construction. We then make conservative estimates of savings for the customer. It works. There are several here with similar practices and results.

SWEI

76k puts you at 29 BTU's per square foot. That's probably on the high side, but I don't live there and it sounds like you need someone who can really set you straight. I would see if Dave Bunnell would be willing to consult with your plumber. An hour or two of his time would be a worthwhile investment IMO.

maybemark

swei
it's not a matter of setting me straight.
did you ever have question in your mind, when your not sure if the answer is correct?
So far, I've made a chice and purchased the 85k.
you seem very smart at hydronics, but not everyone is smart on the subject. this is why i am here. You feel good on laughing at me over it?
Just wait, one day, you'll be in my shoes, over something that you don't have a clue, and hoping you will get people to help you, and not laugh at you.
For the most part, everyone has been great on this site. i'm happy I joined, I have learned alot, maybe not even close to your knowledge, but i have learned, even from you I have learned.
Mark

SWEI

No laughing involved, and I apologize if that's how it came off. I'm merely saying that I don't live or work close enough to you to lend you that extra bit of local knowledge that can sometimes help seal the deal as far as credibility goes.

I believe the WHN085 will work fabulously in your system as long as it's properly installed and commissioned, which you appear likely to ensure gets done. The majority of us who have posted in your several threads on the project concur.

As to the sizing, I will categorically state that there is simply NFW that a 175k boiler is right for that house. If I worked in Chicago and had looked at the house in person, I might even have suggested a smaller boiler -- quite likely with a few envelope upgrades as part of the package.

maybemark

swei
maybe i took it wrong, and apology accepted.
i guess it didn't over over well with me.
You say that a 175K is not right, I didn't think it was, but 3 companies, and they were large companies that said this.
The funniest part of it, not one of these companies wanted to give me a quote on a HE boiler, only a stadard boiler.

to everyone
Like i said, most people on this site have taught me alot. and I do want to thank everyone for that.
I do believe you people on here, that's why I ordered the 85K, it's just a matter of me making sure.
I have learned, the proper size, and the instalation is so important for these boilers to work properly and for them to last.
many people on here have gone the extra step on giving me their e-mail, so i can communicate better, one even gave me their phone number.
This site is great. I have learned some, so much more to learn, and for the most part, people are helpful.
thanks
mark

SWEI

maybemark said:

You say that a 175K is not right, I didn't think it was, but 3 companies, and they were large companies that said this.

Once your new system is in place and you have your first few months of gas bills from living in a very comfortable house, you will have the wonderful opportunity to laugh at them. This may be followed by some distress as you realize just how many homeowners and businesses have been shortchanged in this country thanks "business as usual" by the HVAC and energy industries.

maybemark

swei
I have been in the trades all my life, since the age of 17, I'm 60 now. i was a carpenter general contractor (self employed) for like 38 years.
I'm on disability noww, and can't work, but, i had customers from the begining that would just wait for me to do their work.
I was honest with them, and they trusted my judgment.
mark

SWEI

A lot of us here are growing a bit long in the tooth as well. We worry about the trades and try to do what we can to help make things better.

maybemark

for the most part, the trades do not have a good reputation.
I did my best, to make that statement incorrect

icesailor

Where I worked, there was one oil supplier that anyone who wanted to use oil, had to use. Any "improvements" I did, I could go back 10 or 20 years and see any changes that occurred. They used the Scully System to calculate deliveries. I could go and make "improvements". Go back a year or two worth of heating seasons, and 10 years of prior heating seasons with the old systems, and the computer would adjust every factor that could be accounted for. Differing total degree day factors from year to year. I could even figure out differences in the past with prior owners usage.

Have you all been able to do that?

Just because your new boiler is more "efficient" doesn't mean that you aren't blowing vast amounts of efficient energy through the leaky, drafty building.

"Hey Joe. I was at the oil company the other day. They were running numbers for me and I asked them to run yours. Here's back 10 years. See when 4 years ago, you had Itchy Ritchie come blow insulation into your house. See here where your oil usage dropped about 200 gallons per year. Want to save some more? I could change that old thing in your cellar to something more modern. Might save you some more on fuel".

"Knock yourself out. How much?"

We don't discuss prices.

Projected fuel savings through efficiency is like that sticker on your car. You will never see it. They ALWAYS burn more fuel than they claim.