New System.......weighing options........

Don_197

Hi Guys........relatively long time member here.....contractor in Spokane, WA.

I just purchased a home with scorched air.............30+ yr old furnace that I will NOT be replacing with another FA furnace. I am actually weighing hydronic vs new steam vs electric radiant. My only parameter is that IT WILL BE RADIANT!!

The home is a 1957 brick rancher, 1060 sq ft up and the same footprint in the basement. getting into the floor joists from the basement is a relative cakewalk as half the basement is unfinished and the other half has period (1950's) 10" acoustic tongue and groove tile (ICK!!) that I am gonna rip down anyway.

So......I ask you this........"if it were yours" would you go with a new steam system (I can poke piping through where the existing forced air registers are for steam baseboard radiators or panel radiators) or go hydronic staple up in the ceiling (not going to do any rau panel type stuff as I will be restoring the original hardwood floors.)) or go cheap down and dirty with ceiling electric radiant? (lots of experience using this.....can be VERY energy efficient if utilized intelligently......my biggest energy bill so far this year was 70 bucks using electric radiant in the apartment I just moved out of)

If you chose steam.....would it be a mini-tube? or what type? (I lean towards one pipe myself.....although the rads will be spensive!)

Ready.......GO!!

SWEI

Is there some reason that staple-up radiant (with plates) from below won't work?

Don_197

No Swei..............totally doable.......that is one option I am contemplating......

SWEI

If you need plates, Radiant Engineering is just over the hill in Bozeman. Good people.

Don_197

now.....are you talking about the plates that seal in the joist space or the ones that clip on to the radiant tubing at specific intervals (Ultra Fin) ??

SWEI

http://radiantengineering.com/productsthermofin/

Don_197

btw.....I don't consider Bozeman to be "just over the hill" as there are 3 major passes in between us LOL!! (I have family there.....400 miles away 8-) ) But I definitely could have stuff interbranched between supply houses from there!

SWEI

I've driven those passes -- in the summer. Shipping on plates can really add up. They also make 8-foot long plates, which save a bit of time (assuming you have room to use them.)

Don_197

Yes...just checked.....there is a Keller Supply in Bozeman.....so interbranching won't cost me a dime 8-) Still ruminating on exactly what I want to do.....steam.....hydronic radiant....or electric radiant. Love the "idea" of steam.......

Don_197

I know for a fact I would have the only NEW residential steam system in the state.......LOL!!

Gordy

Always a fan of liquid sunshine (ceiling radiant) not so much the electric in my parts of the country 12 cents kw.

moneypitfeeder

I have to vote for cast iron rads...nothing beats them imo! Plus, you can dry gloves/mittens, etc. on them, warm towels, you name it. My house in PA feels like the tropics in the winter, I'd never go back to any other kind of heat as long as I'm in my zip code....
Rads are pricey, but if you're not in a time crunch I always see lots of them go up for sale via craigslist or ebay.

Abracadabra

Don,

You might want to consider a steam mini-tube system like @gerry gill‌ recently did.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151994/new-steam-mini-tube-installation-in-ohio/p1

SWEI

If you're replacing or refinishing them anyway, Gordy‌ has a point -- ceilings leave you maximum flexibility in furniture and rug placement. They also make for the most effective radiant cooling should you decide to experiment with that at some point.

The bummer for me (as a fan of historic houses) is that I have not been able to find a way to retrofit them to existing lath and plaster (either ceilings or walls.)

Panel rads and CI rads both work fabulously and (other than slab on grade) are an easy retrofit. In smaller houses and commercial (retail, restaurant) spaces, the restrictions they impose on use of wall space too often become deal-killers.

Gordy

I also like the fact radiant ceilings heat the very surfaces we sit on, lay on, even walk on.

All though I have to question the design environment of the area maybe a more responsive emitter would prove more suitable than radiant all together.

ChrisJ

I'm going to assume with radiant cooling you also need separate dehumidification?

My vote without a doubt is steam with cast iron radiators.
Mini tube, large tube, whatever works for you. My opinion as a homeowner is forced hot air just blows. Forced hot water is a pain, can leak all over the house, needs to be bled whenever you do work to it, has pumps that can and do fail etc.

Steam once you understand it is simple, fast and effective.

Gordy

Come on Chris you can do a better job than that at bashing hydronics. I see a lot of issues on the steam section too.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Come on Chris you can do a better job than that at bashing hydronics. I see a lot of issues on the steam section too.

Gordy,
Steam is hydronic heat as well.

Honestly, I don't intend to bash hot water heat. I'd take it any day over forced hot air. It's good heat, just it has problems as well.

My preference is just steam is all.

Gordy

Just ribin ya Chris. I think we can agree if done right either has minimal issues.

And yes depending on climate dehumidification is needed, but duct sizing is a huge step down from conventional AC, and a step up in comfort.

Robert O'Connor_12

Love steam but I think I'd go with staple up, then reuse duct work for AC.

Eastman

I want you to do a Select Temp mini tube. Vacuum if you want.
3/8 two pipe with electronic TRVs imported from the UK that can call for heat.

Gordy

Robert makes a good point about reusing the ductwork for AC.

SWEI

The dewpoint in Spokane is generally quite low. Radiant cooling alone should work quite well.

hot_rod

One goal would be to heat the home with 120F or less fluid temperatures. A mix of radiant, floor, ceiling or walls, and panel rads with TRVs would be a nice option.

Many options for radiant retro fits once you determine the loads with an accurate room by room load calc.

Low temperature designs allows for condensing boiler and solar input. Or an air to water heat pump if electric rates are low.

Eastman

Where's the glory at 120 degrees?

Gordy

Your right Eastman I prefer 110* or lower when ever loads allow.

hot_rod

Sure, the lower the better.

120F is attainable from a quality solar thermal in most US winter climates that we have put product into.
Its a good number to keep a reasonable COP on air to water or water to water HPs, and a good operating temperature for mod cons, one that will still allow DHW production with a plate HX!

Gordy

My ceiling radiant sees AWT of 100 most of the season. 108 on a design day. That's early 50s construction, and radiant.

ChrisJ

Of course, steam allows for rapid recoveries and far less radiation.

SWEI

We find that most retrofits have some sort of size/placement limitation in the system that ends up determining the design supply temp. The rest of the emitters get adjusted proportionally to result in a well-balanced system. Design supply temps as high as 150-160˚F still produce bucket loads of condensate from a properly commissioned mod/con.

Eastman

I like what you did there Gordy.

Don, what is a xx low temperature triple niner efficiency system going to get you on a 1000 sqft install? Let's be honest, no one is interested in the station wagon, you want/need the midlife crisis rat rod.

Fastest recovery from setback, highest deltas, highest radiant energy delivery fraction, smallest EDR/tubing, phase change, vacuum --the prestige-- steam.

Fred

I think, in the end, you want a simple, relatively easy to maintain system. I'm pro steam, with rads but that is just my preference. While the home is new to you, one day, in the not so distant future, you may want to move and the heating system can't be so custom as to not be easily understood by the next (or any) person that might be called to repair/maintain it. It also can't (or shouldn't) be a liabilty as it relates to the sale of the property. Keep it simple, effecient and effective.

Eastman

What happened to Don? I want action!

Fred

I don't know what happened. I thought maybe I pissed him off by suggesting simple

ChrisJ

"Simple, efficient and effective, STEAM".

Right?

Fred

You got it!

Gordy

He's probably weighing the ideas from K.I.S.S to science experiment.

Eastman

Tired of waiting.... starting the design phase... post back in a few...

Gordy

okay get started on your science experiment Eastman.

Eastman

Here it is Gordy... what do you think?

Why can't I get the image to show up here?

ChrisJ

I have the same problem, just click on the image link under the message and it will pop up.

So far I see "no piping and pickup factor" so I'm liking it!