Broomell system, at least it was.

realliveplumber

Good day from New Jersey. My head is spinning on this one and I could use some advice. I do not have much experience in steam, and no one in the area is well versed, that I am aware of.

I have a customer who has a Weil Mclain EG75, that is connected to what I discovered to be a Broomell Vapor system. The boiler failed last Wednesday, I think it was out of water, and dry fired, but have no way to be sure. One of the sections is cracked. I have been asked to replace it, and am trying to do my due diligence, save the customer some energy, and save myself some headaches.

The condensing radiator is still there, the receiver is long gone. There is no header, just one riser. There are no main vents. There is no Hartford loop. There is an equalizer off of the steam riser. NONE of the piping is insulated. No idea of the original boiler water level. [there was an oil boiler before this 25 + year old gas boiler]. How this thing worked is beyond me.

It looks like the largest of 4 mains [2" i.p.,] wraps the basement, and reconnects to the steam riser , right next to where it left.. I have no idea how the air is leaving the system. There are dry returns below the mains, coming out tees several spots in the basement.

I did measure the EDR of the rads, it is 976 square feet. exactly. [19 rads, 5000 sq ft. home. It looks like 2 have been removed and capped from the mains]

So, a couple questions to start. The customer has no heat, and we need to install a boiler fairly quickly.

Should I install an EGH105-S, that will provide 978 sq. ft. of steam.? [This is the largest the chimney will accommodate]

Do we install a drop header and Hartford loop? How about venting the mains?

Can I just install the new EG105 boiler, with a drop header and Hartford Loop, and address the other piping issues in the spring? The old EG75 has heated most radiators for the last 15 years that the current owner has been there. [notice I didn't say it "worked fine for the last 15 years" , the owner may not realize it has hardly been working at all. ]

Thanks for any advice.

Steamhead

Since you say there were several radiators removed, that system now has larger pipes than needed to support what's still there. Best to allow for that.

I'm not fond of the larger EG and EGH boilers. The sections tend to sag in the middle and leak at the joints.

What I'd do is use a Weil-McLain 4-80 with a power gas burner. It is available from the factory this way, and you have your choice of burners. This boiler has 4" tappings so piping will be simpler- you can use a drop header if you want, but with only one riser to the header it's not strictly necessary. And assembly is easier since there are only four sections.

The 4-80 is rated 1296 square feet, but since it uses a power burner you can down-fire it a bit. Down-firing an atmospheric often doesn't work so well, due to the lack of control over combustion air.

Jamie Hall

Yes, the EG105 should work fine. Pipe it up as you are suggesting (and s the manufacturer suggest!), and hook the existing mains into the drop header. For future use, set it up from the beginning with a vapourstat as the main control, backed up with a pressuretrol.

Insulate everything!

Then come back and we can getting all the rest of the issues straightened out!

Steamhead

And, what Jamie said about the Vaporstat.

JStar

@realliveplumber‌

I take care of a few Broomell systems in NJ/PA. Let me know if you'd like any field assistance with this installation. I'd be more than happy to help.

realliveplumber

Thanks guys.

I thought about a Colombia or WM with a gun, but noise will be an issue in the finished basement.

I'll do what Jamie said, and go from there. (Do i put the vaporstat in series with the pressuretrol?) what manufacturer?

Jstar, thanks, i may need it. I'll let you know.

Jamie Hall

yes, the vapourstat just goes in series

vaporvac

These older vapor systems, especially the vaporvacuum ones, had equalizers coming off the mains. They're necessary for the proper functioning of the system. It would be nice to get that system working as designed some time in the future. I was worried my powered gas conversion burner would be noisy (Riello G400), but it's no noisier than my original atmospheric burners. We down-fired mine quite a bit and have a fairly perfect fit to the attached edr. Keep us posted. C.

Robert O'Connor_12

Anywhere near Essex County?

realliveplumber

South Jersey, by Philadelphia.

realliveplumber

So, we started taking the old boiler out today. Upon closer inspection, we discovered that the return originally all came together, into a sort of header. There are 2 that someone relocated to the other side of the boiler, and plugged the tees they were in. We are going to reinstall them all on the same side.

We also discovered that the condensing radiator is connected to this dry return header, and is still connected to the chimney. There is no main vent, or trap, nothing on it. Itsright off the return, through the condensing radiator, and into the chimney. I guess it would be good to try to get a trap or vent on it?

Jamie Hall

If you keep the pressure down, the original arrangement should work just fine. By down, I mean 12 ounces or less.

There is no harm, though, in putting an appropriately sized bunch of Gorton #2s on the line to the chimney -- you shouldn't need any other main vents, and you really don't want them.

No trap there.

And in any event, keep the pressure down!

BRIANJ

I believe that pipe that goes into the chimney would eliminate any need for additional vents as this is how the system was vented originally. Try it out when you put in the new boiler and you will see if this still works, you can always add vents if it doesn't.

Don_197

I had a Broomell system I took care of for a while here in Spokane, WA..........convinced it was the only one ever to be installed here.....by the time I found it......it was near death.......none of the original 2 pipe rads were working, and over time, someone had gotten rid of those tiny return lines on several of the rads and just put vents on the outgoing side of the rads...............and they WORKED!! Homeowner eventually gutted and put scorched air in.....made me sick.

realliveplumber

So we finally fired it up today. We had plenty of piping to straighten out over the last 3 days. It had been hacked up good over the years.

Where to start? We are running it around 8 ounces, 5 oz. differential. All the rads are heating at that pressure. It has a nice cycle to it.

The condensing radiator has a nice crack in it, and started leaking like a sieve. Way too much steam running through it into the chimney. Water then started to run out of the chimney! So we installed an 1 1/4" ball valve and really throttled it closed, that took care of that for now. We did not alter any of that piping! How in the world could it have been working?

Every radiator in the house now heats, and relatively quickly. There were 2 or 3 that never got hot!

Several of the "Vapor" rad valves (those 5 position inlet valves) are leaking water. I think they have been leaking from before. Need to deal with that.

So, so far so good. Some skimming and tuning, and she should be good to go. We will also install a mechanical feeder, for added safety.

I gotta say, it has been a stressful job. It took twice as long as i anticipated. We are so way over budget, its ridiculous. Thats gonna be an interesting conversation with the homeowner. I can hardly wait for that.

I'll get some pics next week. I might still have a question or 2 .

Thanks guys.

realliveplumber

Another thing. Its quiet as a church mouse! Not a noise or bang, from cold startup, in a 45 degree building!

(We had it running for an hour and a half before we left, that was a couple of hours ago, no phone call yet, by the grace of God knock on wood)

Jamie Hall

All that is really wonderful! Thank you for the update.

BRIANJ

If any of the disks in the bad valves need to be replaced I can have new ones made. Let me know if you need any help.

nicholas bonham-carter

Don't add a feeder, without reading about all the damage they can do!--NBC

realliveplumber

NBC, can you elaborate please? The customer wants it as an added safety. Thanks

KC_Jones

An automatic feeder isn't a safety device it's a convenience item so that people don't have to pay attention to their boilers. If the boiler needs water so often that the owner wants and automatic feeder they have a leak and need to address that issue. A feeder can mask issues like this. If a feeder must be installed install one with a water meter and tell the customer they should monitor this on a regular basis weekly at least in my opinion. Feeders are a hot topic on this site. I have one for the times when I may be away from home for long periods, but I also check my boiler 2-3 times per week to keep an eye on it. Excess feed water from an automatic feeder can kill boilers.

Jamie Hall

My view on automatic water feeders is that they are fine, so long as they have meters on them and are checked from time to time. The LWCO is the safety feature, and I like to see two -- one related to the auto feeder, but on a delay, and the other, lower, so tht if the auto feeder and it's LWCO don't work, you have a backup. The low one should be manual reset.

It is a balance. If you have someone looking at the thing very often -- daily -- you probably don't need one. If you have a situation where the house may be unattnded for a few days, in my view you should...

realliveplumber

Does anyone have an idea of what is in those Radiator valves?

Several leak at the stem.

nicholas bonham-carter

They may have an adjustable stop, to prevent them from being opened too far. This provides a sort of adjustable orifice for each rad. On first installation, the valves would be opened only so far as to let steam get to the last section. Some sort of hidden screw would then be turned to prevent any further moment, although they could be closed down. I think Mepco has a modern equivalent.
I don't see why a regular steam valve could not be partially closed enough to accomplish the same thing. Remove the handle to prevent further unskilled tampering.--NBC