Navien CH-240 Knocking and error code 16

Gordy

Yes just purge from the hot side in a bucket. And was the system pressure at cold 15psi?

SoundPipes

The readout on the Navien does not show system pressure until I power it back on. Once I powered it the pressure started at 17 psi and climbed up to 24psi as burners kicked on. I will make a video of it firing up and send you the link. I will go down and purge the DHW now.

Gordy

I'm wondering about water quality... Did you put on a y strainer? Fouled or cracked HX anyone?

SoundPipes

Are water is very hard, clogs the shower and faucets on a regular basis. I have not put in a softener yet. I did not put in a y strainer but did purchase one, just did not install it yet.

Ironman

How about air in the plate HX that hasn't been purged because there's no domestic call. It could be partially working its way out of the plate HX and into the main HX.

The main HX could be fouled, but it would be leaking into the fire side if cracked.

It's possible the primary pump could be dropping out also due to a bad overload or micro relay on the board.

I would try to keep the primary pump running without the burner firing and see what happens after a couple of minutes. Closing the gas cock will do this until the boiler locks out from ignition failure.

Ironman

SoundPipes said:

Do you know where to find or adjust the automatic flow valve in the Navien unit? It lists that as one of the things to check when getting error codes.

It has an " auto fill valve", but I'm unaware of an "auto FLOW valve. The auto fill valve is what fills and maintains pressure on the boiler side.

Gordy

http://bostonheatingsupply.com/Navien/CH Service Manual.pdf

This may help a little unless you have it.

SoundPipes

I purged the air and water through the DHW side, it came out plenty fast. I do have the manual and used that to re-do the entire plumbing since my original installer did not follow any of the installation guides.

What do you think is my next best step to get this boiler working properly? I have called the company once, but they would not troubleshoot with me because i was not a licensed HVAC/Boiler tech. They said give me your zip code and we will have the nearest field rep come and take care of it. He told me, we don't have anyone in your area.

I really appreciate everyone's help and still think this can get resolved. I will get a video posted so it may help to see and hear it working, flashing to steam and shutting down.

Ironman

My point about air being trapped in the plate HX was that you have to establish domestic flow which would cause the boiler to fire and heat it. That way the 3way valve would divert flow on the hydronic side through the plate HX purging the air into the system to be removed. Simply opening the hot water outlet will not do this as you're not initiating a domestic heat call.

There's only so much that we can attempt to diagnose over the internet. Our eyes and ears are trained to look for things when we're on site that direct us to finding the problem and solution. On here, your words and pics are our eyes and ears and that obviously limits our diagnosis to the info that you try to provide. Many times, I've spent a long time with one of my men on the phone trying to diagnose a problem only to have to go on site and find it in matter of minutes or sometimes even seconds because we were using the medium of speech to attempt to communicate what our senses normally do.

We are glad to continue to try and help you, but we may have reached the point where someone who is trained and equipped with the necessary tools needs to be on site.

Have you tried the contractor locator on this site?

SoundPipes

I will go ahead an hook up the DHW. I definitely understand it is difficult to diagnose this way. I know if you all were on site it would not take long to figure this out. I will try the locator on this site and see who I can find. I'll post my results. Probably won't be until this evening. Thanks again.

icesailor

For a better way of purging:

The way some put Anti-Freeze in to a boiler.

Take a 5 gallon bucket and a handy/utility pump. Put a suction hose in the 5 gallon bucket and connect to the system like it was a fill valve. Connect a hose from the purge drain to the 5 gallon bucket. Fill the 5 gallon bucket to an adequate level and start the handy pump. Once the pump is primed and pumping water, it would/will go through the boiler and return to the 5 gallon bucket by the purge hose. Have the end of the purge water hose well into the bucket water. You will see the bubbles come into the bucket water. There should be a boiler PRV with a by-pass lever on it. Open the by-pass lever to provide water and pressure. Purge the entire system. Once the air stops, turn on the boiler. As it heats, it will start returning warm or hot water. If it starts to boil in the HX while "Power Purging", you have some other problem. If purging is done properly, you should be able to get warm water through any zone once the air is purged out. If the problem is the potable water side, initiate flow by installing a temporary outlet with a boiler drain and purge the HW side into the bucket.

That's how you fill a system with Anti-Freeze and purge the zones. Add some water and prime the pump. Add the anti-freeze full strength, then add fresh water until the system is filled. The system will mix the solution. When done, the remaining water in the purge bucket will be the same solution as in the system. Pour the solution into a 5 gallon anti-freeze bucket, put on the cap, write the date and % solution on the can,, and you're done. So you or the next guy as some fresh solution if needed.

Gordy

Like ironman said from here it's hands on. The gauntlet for e001 can be a few things. Circ, 3 way valve, fouled hx's. You can only do so much from here depending on eyes, ears , and mind on the other. Not bashing op either.

ToddAK

It still sounds like the internal boiler circulator is not running at full speed. Verify the voltage and amp draw are correct at the pump, it will run for a while on gravitational flow.

H20HeatingInfo

Everyone is over thinking this! Error code 16 is over heat exchanger over heating.
Reasons why that might be: 1) The primary loop is undersized, I see only 1" of about 5' black pipe (not the 6-8' of 1.1/4' copper required) 2) black pipe used on heating side 3) no isolation valve kit on heating side. Homeowner said the system is a few years old. Homeowner refereed installer as "local plumber", which doesn't sound like a high efficiency heating contractor. (contractor likely didn't mention how critically important the maintenance is)

Overheating error code might be a false error. I've repaired a lot of 1st gen Naviens over the years and I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar this system was never flushed out since the original install. As we all know, black pipe really shouldn't be on low mass boilers because it breaks down and causes "dirty water". Most people don't realize magnetic particles within the suspended water breaks down just about every part that encounters the water including the heat exchanger.

**I regularly see the first parts within Navien CH units breaking down after the 2nd or 3rd heating season, and total boiler failures on the 5th-6th year. When not flushed out properly, with Black Iron Pipe installed within the system**

Black pipe should not be used, UNLESS the system is flushed out regularly (once a year min,) and the system should be treated with Fernox. Additionally, when I'm repairing Navien combi boilers and encounter black pipe on heating systems (which is on 95% of the Navien repair calls,) it's a given the unit wasn't properly flushed out.

IF YOU OWN A NAVIEN COMBI BOILER AND HAVE BLACK IRON PIPE WITHIN THE SYSTEM, YOU NEED TO TREAT YOUR SYSTEM WITH The Fernox system. http://www.fernox.com/home to prevent future issues.

My advice to time homeowner is get a heating consultant to write up a summary and send it to Navien. You should get the parts/ heat exchanger covered under warranty, i've been able to get my clients new Navien NCB units for old leaking CH units. If your CH gets labeled "a leaky" by a level 2 Navien (or higher) tech support, you can possibly get a new combi boiler covered under warranty. Warm regards- J Sullivan
https://twitter.com/H20HeatingInfo

RobG

Nobody is overthinking this, we have forgotten this! It's from 2014!

happydave

It's a flow issue not air, circulatory for zones are installed incorrectly "motors down"

happydave

If purging never use a bucket, ALWAYS a hose to a drain or outside to street. When you use a bucket air bubbles are just about there and bucket is full. Shut off drain air bubbles roll back, ALWAYS use a hose. Don't use they auto-fill, never feeds fast enough, even Koreans told us that.