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Broken main steam vent

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  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,477
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    Air vents have to point up for the floats to work, if they are on their sides they may vent but they might also start spraying water. Straight vents are usually for TRVs and angled vents for use on radiators that have the vents mounted on the sides.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    BobC said:

    Air vents have to point up for the floats to work, if they are on their sides they may vent but they might also start spraying water. Straight vents are usually for TRVs and angled vents for use on radiators that have the vents mounted on the sides.

    Bob

    Figures. Since some of the ones I have installed are spewing water out the vent
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    Could I possibly use a 90 degree street elbow? To get the vents vertical?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,477
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    That would work, put the vent on the elbow first and then screw that assy onto the radiator.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    You can try it but the angled vents normally have a tongue on them that lets any water that gets into the valve drip back into the radiator. I'm not sure if the straight ones, mounted on a street elbow will be too far removed from the radiator to close when they need to. They may let a little steam out before they close
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    I've been shopping around for a larger radiator for the master bedroom. Problem is the existing one is 6" in depth. The new one I found is 8" in depth and the existing steam pipe connection will not line up. Anyone dealt with this issue and any ideas on how to reconnect the pipe to the new radiator?
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
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    Does the bedroom get steam at the same time as the other rads? If it is slower, then the room may not heat up as much as it could.
    What size is the pipe to this rad? How much extra steam can it support?--NBC
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    The bedroom radiator heats up with the rest of the house and stays hot across all sections. I believe it is just too small for the bedroom. It has an edr of 30 and the new rad has an edr of 50. The Pipe size is 1-1/4". The boiler has the capacity for the increase in edr. Can 1-1/4" pipe handle an edr of 50?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,477
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    It looks like the runout of a 1-1/4" pipe can handle an EDR of 55, make sure it's sloped correctly.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    BobC said:

    It looks like the runout of a 1-1/4" pipe can handle an EDR of 55, make sure it's sloped correctly.

    Bob

    Bob,

    Thanks for that information. now that i know it can handle the EDR, what would be the best way to have it piped since they do not line up? anyone have this problem?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    If you can get the Valve off of the pipe, put a 1-1/4 street elbow on the pipe and then mount the valve on the street elbow. That shoukld give you the room you need. If it still is not quite enough, use a regular elbow and a close nipple and mount the valve on the close nipple.
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    Fred said:

    If you can get the Valve off of the pipe, put a 1-1/4 street elbow on the pipe and then mount the valve on the street elbow. That shoukld give you the room you need. If it still is not quite enough, use a regular elbow and a close nipple and mount the valve on the close nipple.

    Thanks! if i did this. the pipe would have to be pitched back correct? so that the condensate would return.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited December 2014
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    we are talking the distance of a 90 degree fitting. Just making sure you have good pitch on the radiator should suffice. If you have some concern about pitch, you can use a regular 45 degree and a street 45 together (or with a short nipple between them and that should give you some additional flexibility but I don't think that is necessary.
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    Fred said:

    we are talking the distance of a 90 degree fitting. Just making sure you have good pitch on the radiator should suffice. If you have some concern about pitch, you can use a regular 45 degree and a street 45 together (or with a short nipple between them and that should give you some additional flexibility but I don't think that is necessary.

    Thanks for the ideas i'll be sure to update the thread as it all comes together or apart.

    On a side note: After i installed the Two (2) Gorton #2 Vents i am noticing the radiators are heating up evenly especially the second floor radiators, but they still tend to be venting at a more noticeable audible level than the ones on the 1st floor. any idea as to why this happens and how i can overcome this and quiet down the whistling noise from the rads?

    What i notice down where i installed the two gorton main vents is that the first one in line vents a noticeable amount of air but vent #2 at the tail end of the antler doesnt vent as much as #1. not sure what that means but maybe its a sign to one of you experts. Thanks in advance.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited December 2014
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    Do you have some pitch on the antler that the Gortons are mounted to? Make sure the pitch is towards the tapping in the main. That antler may be holding a little water in it and not allowing the air to push out the vent as well as it could. It sounds like you may need a bit more venting. How many gortons and which ones did you install on the mains? Are the vents installed after the last radiator run? Typically, on a 2" main, you want a Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of main. Are the radiators on the first floor on the same main as those on the second floor? Obviously the second floor rads need to vent more air than the first floor given the extra 10 feet of riser but they still should be very, very quiet. Is you pressure set properly? Do you have the second floor radiator vents wide open? If so, that may let the steam push a bit too fast through those risers and into the raditors.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    Put in a 45deg elbow like in this picture (#70 of 100):

    https://plus.google.com/photos/101157864091065299849/albums/5765428421835656961/5862061137473917474?banner=pwa&authkey=CImUxIqv9436MQ&pid=5862061137473917474&oid=101157864091065299849
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    That's perfect. What I was looking for! Why the vent on the pipe like that though?
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    He wanted to vent the top of a long riser. Probably wasn't getting steam to that radiator fast enough.
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    Fred said:

    Do you have some pitch on the antler that the Gortons are mounted to? Make sure the pitch is towards the tapping in the main. That antler may be holding a little water in it and not allowing the air to push out the vent as well as it could. It sounds like you may need a bit more venting. How many gortons and which ones did you install on the mains? Are the vents installed after the last radiator run? Typically, on a 2" main, you want a Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of main. Are the radiators on the first floor on the same main as those on the second floor? Obviously the second floor rads need to vent more air than the first floor given the extra 10 feet of riser but they still should be very, very quiet. Is you pressure set properly? Do you have the second floor radiator vents wide open? If so, that may let the steam push a bit too fast through those risers and into the raditors.

    yes i wedged a piece of wood in order to create a pitch of the antler back to the main.

    i have two gorton #2s on an 1/2" antler serving approximately 23' of 2-1/2' main steam pipe.

    I beleive the radiators on the second floor are on the same main as the ones on the first floor but i cant be 100% certain as the basement is finished and cant see above the sheet rock ceiling.

    the pressure at the boiler is set to cut in at 0.5 with a diff. of 1.5psi.

    I currently have the second floor radiator vents wide open with gorton #5s on each of the two radiators.

    i noticed yesterday that one of the radiators in my sons room was spitting a considerable amount of water out of the vent. it created a puddle of water on our newly finished floor and i need to get this sorted out before it ruins it. Sometimes it spits out water sometimes it doesnt. its very on and off.

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,737
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    "Sometimes it spits out water sometimes it doesnt. its very on and off. " That could be a sag in a pipe feeding that radiator holding some water. Try and pay attention and see if it happens only on longer run times. Also did you verify the pitch of that radiator to make sure it is pitched towards the outlet?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Spunky424
    Spunky424 Member Posts: 82
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    KC_Jones said:

    "Sometimes it spits out water sometimes it doesnt. its very on and off. " That could be a sag in a pipe feeding that radiator holding some water. Try and pay attention and see if it happens only on longer run times. Also did you verify the pitch of that radiator to make sure it is pitched towards the outlet?

    yes i've made sure to pitch each radiator in my house by putting washers underneath the legs. One thing i've noticed is it spits water when the system has been off for a while. for instance yesterday the boiler was off for about 5-6 hours until i came home from work and when i started her up i heard loud hissing from my sons room on the second floor and realized it was hissing/gurgling and then eventually spitting out what i would say is alot of water. After the Tstat was satisified the boiler shut off and started back up after maybe two hours and the vents were perfectly fine. no water/hissing/gurgling. Seems like the condensate collects when the system is off.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,737
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    That sounds for sure like a sag in a pipe or an incorrect pitch on a pipe somewhere. Now the trick is locating it. If it's in a floor that could be problematic. Another thing to look for is settling of the house. If the house has settled and moved some pipes around over time that could cause issues. If you have that sometimes (if there is enough play in the pipes) you can jack up a radiator to correct a pipe pitch, but it all depends on where it is. I would start looking around the system and check any pipe pitch you can and make sure everything has slope in the correct direction. On longer runs you can also use a string line to check for sags in the pipe.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
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    Loud hissing=high pressure/insufficient main venting. Best to investigate that as well.--NBC
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Also make sure the supply valves are fully open. You say the radiator in question is in your kids room. They tend to play with things.
  • mistertookie
    mistertookie Member Posts: 4
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    can anyone tell me if this a main steam vent. its at the end of my 2" main, where it drops off to the returns. My boiler is being controlled by the pressuretrol (3psi cut in-5psi) on really cold days (close to 0 F), and thought i may need to vent the mains more, but saw that this is the only vent, if its a vent at all. Also isn't the location on the elbow to the return a terrible spot?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I don't have a clue what tht is but it is not a vent for sure. You need to take a picture further back so we caan see where it is installed relative to things around it. It looks like it is above the top of the boiler but I'm not sure. Whatever it is (or was) suppose to be, it is probably something that was jerry-rigged. Proper vents should be up high at the end of a Main, after the last radiator run or sometimes on a return but above the water line.
  • mistertookie
    mistertookie Member Posts: 4
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    sorry, here is the proper orientation

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I see your gas meter below it and it also looks like it is just before the dry return drops to the floor to the wet return. It looks like someone, at some point made a poor attempt to but a vent in and mount it on top of that small pipe that now has a plug in it. That location is all wrong for a vent. The way that pipe elbows down, return water would just plug any vent up with crud and/or water. You do need vents to move the steam along the mains effeciently. The first thing to do is to try to find a good location at the end of the main or at the top of a return to mount them.
    Is this a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?
  • mistertookie
    mistertookie Member Posts: 4
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    its a 1 pipe system. Now that I've confirmed this is not a real vent or a good location for a vent, I'll look to vent on the main itself. Its going to be further in from where the attempted vent currently is, but it will be before the last radiator cut-out, which you can see in my pic. Would that location be OK, or should I vent on the dry return?

    I bought the home in 2011 in Queens, NY and this is the first year I am actually investigating the system, as it has been struggling to jump from 69 to 71 degrees in the mornings when its around 0-20 degrees out. The windier it is the harder the boiler works to maintain the temp. I suspect i need to:

    1. insulate my pipes
    2. install a proper main vent
    3. check if my piping is actually OK

    Here is a pic (boiler piping1) of my boiler piping.

    The largest pipe coming out the top of the boiler vents into the wall (chimney). You can also see the hot water boiler vent pipes in the top of the pic venting into the chimney as well.

    The black pipe on the left is the gas pipe going to the boiler.

    The boiler riser pipe (looks to be 3") comes up from the boiler and make a 90 degree turn while converting to a 2" pipe, then that 2" pipe ends in a tee. One side of the tee looks to be the equalizer pipe, and the other side goes up to a 90 turn (this is the start of the main). Pic (boiler piping2)
    shows how the main pipe keeps angling until its finally horizontal. Pic (boiler piping 3)
    shows the main finally becoming horizontal to the ground, and right away it has 3 radiator cut outs that feed the back of the house: 1 baseboard pipe in the kitchen on the first floor, 1 baseboard in the second floor bathroom, and 1 baseboard in the 2nd floor back bedroom.

    Right after those 3 radiator cut-outs (assuming that's the right term here) the main angles up a tiny bit and then make a 90 degree turn to ward the front of the home. It goes for about 20 feet, before it drops down to the return (the pic with the jerry rigged vent). Along those 20 feet there are 4 cutouts to radiators. 2 of the 4 cutouts may actually be risers to the 2nd floor, as there are 2 more rooms upstairs with cast iron radiators. All that is irrelevant for now, but just want to paint an accurate picture.

    I assume the boiler pressure builds up when its colder out, because I have not insulated the pipes and i don't have proper main venting. Based on my pics and description of the layout, could the boiler piping also contribute to the pressure building?

    I also find it odd that the 3 radiators in the back of the home don't have a separate hot/wet return piping.

    All the radiators and the baseboard piping in the home have varivalve vents installed. Probably to vent the pipes since there is no main venting.

    I am already indebted to this site for all my steam knowledge and appreciate all the responses so far.

    Thanks!
  • mistertookie
    mistertookie Member Posts: 4
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    Here are pics of my pressuretrol and pressure gauge.

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    You do need to insulate the Mains and vent them as well. The near boiler piping isn't right. The equalizer should actually be piped into the header after the Main. Hard to tell what else is going on with the main piping with out seeing the rest of the piping. There certainly should be some type of return on the back of the house, but, depending on how the main runs, the condensate may flow back, in that Main to a common return.
  • Steve_175
    Steve_175 Member Posts: 238
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    That greenish radiator in the recess under the widow needs to have the vent re orientated. The vents need to point straight up or they will not work properly.
    Show us some pics of the piping that attaches to the boiler (refereed to here as near boiler piping)
    Also you should insulate any pipes in the basement that are bare.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    edited February 2015
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    mistertookie said:

    can anyone tell me if this a main steam vent. its at the end of my 2" main, where it drops off to the returns. My boiler is being controlled by the pressuretrol (3psi cut in-5psi) on really cold days (close to 0 F), and thought i may need to vent the mains more, but saw that this is the only vent, if its a vent at all. Also isn't the location on the elbow to the return a terrible spot?

    That looks like someone tried to add a vent at that location by tapping into the elbow. Looks like 3/8"?

    3psi? way way way too high.... 5psi? way way way way way too high.

    I'm sure the deadmen had a place for a main vent. Pretend you are the steam and follow the main pipe around the house, pretend you condense into water and follow the return back to the boiler. At the point where you (as water) drop down to a wet return, that's about the area you should install a main vent. Keep in mind that there might and most likely will be more than one location for a main vent.

    From your pictures, and your description, it sounds like the main pitches upwards as it gets further away from the boiler. Sounds like you have a counterflow 1-pipe system? Unless I'm not understanding and I'm confused by your pictures. If that's the case your near boiler piping is all wrong.

    I also see copper as a steam main?
    Also, did I mention you really need to lower the pressure setting on the pressuretrol?

    Also, please try starting a new thread next time instead of posting your questions on someone else's thread.

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