Pictures of near boiler piping. Water hammer and pressure reading at 5 PSI when running.

BobbyC

Hi All,

So this is continuation from an earlier thread on water hammer in a radiator of a two pipe system. As I was over his house last night, sounds like the water hammer is happening around near boiler piping and not the rad. I took some pics of it and was hoping to get some input. I also noticed a 5 PSI reading when the boiler is steaming and also big change in water level when it's steaming so seems like the system is sucking in a lot of water. Another issue is hissing from the radiator vents. Is a 5 PSI reading normal on some steam systems (2 Pipe)? I have a one pipe system and the PSI gauge never moves when steaming.

I lowered the cut off on the Pressuretrol but the piping looks a little off. Look forward to any input on how and why the water hammer is happening and how to fix.

Thanks,

Rob

Abracadabra

Lower the setting on the pressuretrol. You don't need 5 psi.

BobbyC

I did. Set cut in at .5 and diff at 1.5. that piping look correct?

nicholas bonham-carter

The pressure may have been set as high as that to compensate for bad main venting, so have a look at that situation if you notice it short-cycling.--NBC

KC_Jones

BobbyC said:

that piping look correct?

Not even close. The only thing I can spot correct is that it isn't copper. That appears to be a Dunkirk boiler. Here is a link to one of their manuals. Not sure what model that is, but the basic piping concepts are the same. See page 9 and 10
http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/3294.pdf
One thing that jumps out at me is that "Hartford loop" connection if you want to call it that. There should be a close nipple there. I bet it was hammering like crazy. How old is the boiler? Is this a new install?

BobC

The best thing for that piping would be a sawzall. Then get someone who knows how to read the manual.

Bob

Paul48

Header, Equalizer? Am I missing something?

Fred

Everything about that piping is wrong, no header, Hardford loop, equalizer, all of it. As BobC said a good sawzall and a Steam Pro who can read is the fix.

Steamhead

Also, they reduced the pipe size coming out of the boiler from 2-1/2" to 2". This increases the steam's velocity which can pull water from the boiler up into the system.

I wonder why we see so many badly piped Dunkirks? Is it that hard to follow directions?

BobbyC

KC it's not a new install. I would say maybe 10 years old. He hears a lot of hammer around near boiler piping.

KC_Jones

Steamhead said:

I wonder why we see so many badly piped Dunkirks? Is it that hard to follow directions?

In my experience getting a "professional" (I am using that term loosely) to follow directions is difficult.
"I've been doing this for X years....."
"Trust me I know what I am doing"
Steamhead you forgot your catch phrase....

Steamhead

I wondered if anyone would notice. All together now.... 1..... 2..... 3...........................................

KC_Jones

You can't fix stupid!

icesailor

But some could be educated if they would only read.

Mark N

You don't have to be able to read to follow a piping diagram. Illiteracy seems to be the number one killer of steam boilers worldwide. I believe the manufacturers of boilers should put a label right on the jacket of the boiler showing the proper piping for the boiler. That way maybe the installer might actually see it, or the homeowner who just got hosed by a bad install.

KC_Jones

Mark N said:

You don't have to be able to read to follow a piping diagram. Illiteracy seems to be the number one killer of steam boilers worldwide. I believe the manufacturers of boilers should put a label right on the jacket of the boiler showing the proper piping for the boiler. That way maybe the installer might actually see it, or the homeowner who just got hosed by a bad install.

The sticker would need to cover the entire outer jacket on all sides and have huge warning labels, basically make it so obvious no one could miss it. Of course some contractors would still be like "oh I've been doing this for 30 years....blah blah blah."

Mark N

Just because you've been doing something wrong for 30 years doesn't make it right.

RobG

Mark N said:

You don't have to be able to read to follow a piping diagram. Illiteracy seems to be the number one killer of steam boilers worldwide. I believe the manufacturers of boilers should put a label right on the jacket of the boiler showing the proper piping for the boiler. That way maybe the installer might actually see it, or the homeowner who just got hosed by a bad install.

If only the inspectors could follow the piping diagram the installers would be forced to do the same. Inspectors should be better trained and better paid so that as a minimum they can follow a basic wiring and piping diagram and understand what they are looking at.

KC_Jones

I am sure some of you have seen the pics of my boiler install. I am not a pro, but I am handy. I did a ton of research learned all I could and then executed my project. I am not bragging, but mine looks better than a lot of the "pros" work that is posted on here. I am of course not referring to the real pros who are members of this site, but the hacks posted by homeowners. Anyway when I went to buy the boiler it took a while for me to find anyone who would talk to me let alone sell to me. Even the one I finally bought from said we usually don't do this because steam can be so dangerous. I flat out told the guy...Have you seen the garbage work the pros are doing with a lot of these installs? I showed him my proposed piping layout dropped header etc. His exact words...I have never seen anything like that. I looked at him and responded....And you are worried about selling to me? He shut up and took my credit card. I am not trying to be rude, I fully understand their position. What I don't understand is there seems to be no one minding the store on this. No one knows no one cares. The inspectors and permits are supposed to protect the homeowner, but they don't seem to be. The contractor is supposed to work for the customer, but a lot of them don't seem to be. I work for a large OEM manufacturer of industrial HVAC/Refrigeration equipment as a designer. We bend over backwards for our customers. There is almost no request too big. Out of warranty? Well you have been a good customer we can help you out there. You get the picture. I will never understand a "service" company that gives bad service...that is essentially their only job and they can't get it right. Sorry didn't mean to hijack this I just get very frustrated. I only expect from other as much as I have given myself.

Fred

Calma, Calma, Calma, KC

KC_Jones

I'm calm just need to get it out sometimes...well a lot of times.

nicholas bonham-carter

I definitely think the unknowlegeble inspectors are partly to blame for all these poor people here asking why their new system is not working.
They are enabling knuckleheads to provide bad installations, and increase our carbon footprint!--NBC

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

Also, they reduced the pipe size coming out of the boiler from 2-1/2" to 2". This increases the steam's velocity which can pull water from the boiler up into the system.

I wonder why we see so many badly piped Dunkirks? Is it that hard to follow directions?

They don't follow Burnham's instructions why should they follow Dunkirk's?

And the answer seems to always be the same. It's fine and noise and high fuel bills are normal with steam. If we had more Franks and Gordos there would be more quiet steam systems.

SWEI

The supply chain here in the US vehemently resists any attempt to pre-qualify installers (unless there's refrigerant involved, of course.)

icesailor

"" If we had more Franks and Gordos there would be more quiet steam systems. ""

The Frank's and Gordo's of the trade will always have a hard time competing with the hacksters because Hacksters have a larger fleet of ships. As long as so many have the genetic Cheap gene, there'll always be plenty or work for the hacksters.

BobC

It costs more to install a boiler correctly, some customers just can't see past the dollar signs. Also very few consumers know the difference between a good install and one that is going to be a horror show. It amazes me that people will balk at the increased cost of doing it right but not bat an eyelash at the pair of $50k automobiles in the driveway. A properly installed boiler should last 25 years, those cars are usually long gone after 6 or 7 years.

The distributors could care less who they sell to as long as they don't get caught selling to consumers.

Bob

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

"" If we had more Franks and Gordos there would be more quiet steam systems. ""

The Frank's and Gordo's of the trade will always have a hard time competing with the hacksters because Hacksters have a larger fleet of ships. As long as so many have the genetic Cheap gene, there'll always be plenty or work for the hacksters.

I agree to an extent but not completely.
From my personal experiences hacks often charge as much if not more than the quality guys out there. But overall I'd say you're right. The lowest bidder B.S. needs to end.

KC_Jones

I agree I did my own install and spent MORE than the quotes I was getting. So what was the "pro" going to give me? Granted he might get a better price on some of the materials, but that difference can't be their only profit...at least I wouldn't think so. I support local business as much as I can, but I as a homeowner shouldn't accept garbage just to support them. It's a crazy world in which we live that's for sure.

RobG

SWEI said:

The supply chain here in the US vehemently resists any attempt to pre-qualify installers (unless there's refrigerant involved, of course.)

They only do that because of the potential fines involved.

BobbyC

safe to say the near boiler piping doesn't look too good. He did tell me since we lowered the pressure settings the water hammer has been a lot better.

BobbyC

I saw references to a Dunkirk but the boiler is a smith. Not sure if that makes any difference.

KC_Jones

That was a guess on my part because of side outlets...bad guess I guess.

KC_Jones

lol I see it now. I guess, my guess, was a good guess.