What would have prevented this?

Larry (from OSHA)

Actually, having CO monitors in sleeping areas be a requirement for any occupancy with combustion equipment would most likely have prevented these deaths. Another question is how many of the people that dealt with this should be held liable and to what extent. Code inspectors are usually held harmless but do you think that should change?


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/11/19/5327338/state-suspends-contractors-license.html


Larry

icesailor

Interesting article. I had a CO experience with Rocky Mount, NC. I tried to contact that newspaper. You can't.

SlamDunk

I have been following this from day one. The hotel management may have illegally installed a used, but functional pool heater in 2011. Shame on them for being ignorant of the law and not pulling permits.

I have been in maintenance for 30 years and many bosses have asked me to work under the radar. It is very common for management to confuse maintainers for virtually every other craft.

That said, their actions did not kill anyone. The swap was performed in 2011 and the deaths occurred in 2013 after a licensed contractor converted fuel even though manufacturer said "don't". Should the contractor have also inspected the stack installed during construction? I dont know, but something tells me if the stack was inspected and of the correct material, installed properly during construction, it would not have corroded. I think larger share of fault lies with heating contractor.

I think in another artical, the stack was said to be supported with VHS tape cassettes. So maybe it does go back to hotel maintenance but who? I am sure they have a turnover rate and zero documentation!

Paul48

In this case...the code inspector was brought in to inspect the conversion. Shouldn't that include opening the manual to ensure that was done to manufacturers specifications? Are they requiring permits to protect the public, or ensure they tax accordingly?

BobC

There are two kinds of inspectors. One will enforce rules to keep people safe and will usually explain why something has to be done.

The other is usually someones brother in-law who has a vastly overinflated opinion of himself and knows way to much to read any damn manual.


When My new boiler was inspected by the city inspector a couple of years ago all he wanted to see was for the pressure gauge not move. Had he walked three feet towards the boiler he would have seen the 3" hole in the chimney that the installer forgot to plug up. I plugged up the hole myself when the inspector left.

He was a lot more interested in making his noon golf game than he was in doing his job.

Bob

SlamDunk

there is a lot in that article and I missed that the conversion work was inspected. yeah, the inspector bears a large portion of blame. followed by the installer. in pharma world where i work, many steps and checks are performed and verified by someone else. if a step was skipped or done incorrectly yet verified, the verifier gets nailed pretty hard!

icesailor

It was explained to me once by a lawyer or someone with legal training that:

Inspectors are not God and are not expected to see things that aren't apparent. In jurisdictions where professional licenses are required, the professional holding the license and doing the work is ultimately responsible for the job. It gets difficult to assign blame. The architect for Boston's "Big Dig" where they depressed Rt.91 under the river is blamed for the design and the problems with it. The actual contractor shares a blame. Some places have weeps where workers threw trash inside the forms, rather than trash cans. So, there is trash in the forms. Some workers are said to have left fecal matter inside the forms. Not conducive to quality Portland Cement/Concrete. They used high tech refrigeration to freeze the soil to hold the water back. There have been unexpected results and failures from these processes. When I used to drive up North and back to sail, I often drove through The Big Dig. When I first drove through when it first opened, the roadway was rather flat the whole length. The last time I went through (in 2013), there were some really big rises in the roadway and in some places, it seemed like the road had a real race track camber. If something happens, who is responsible? I think of this. And thinking about not having to drive through it.

I also think about the hotel in Rocky Mount, NC that had 12+ PPM of CO in the lobby, coming from a laundry room with the pool pumps in it. I reported it to the appropriate authorities. Five months later, it was still the same. This was during a major effort by the Rocky Mount FD to get Smoke Detectors installed in homes and buildings.

If you go around looking for the mistakes of those before you, you become paranoid and thought of as a @$$hat.

Anyone that works around anything needs to own, carry and use a personal CO detector. It can save you're and other lives. Especially so after reading the story about wood pellets and CO.

SlamDunk

BobC said:

When My new boiler was inspected by the city inspector a couple of years ago all he wanted to see was for the pressure gauge not move. Had he walked three feet towards the boiler he would have seen the 3" hole in the chimney that the installer forgot to plug up.

Bob

When I had my hvac system installed in my attic, the inspector only stuck his head thru the hole and passed it. Same with the electrical inspector on the project. I dont see any benefit from the cost of those permits. My experience is there isnt consistency in quality between inspectors. I have come across really good ones, obstinate ones and some who could care less like the inspector who wanted me to simulate a loss of flame on a heating hot water boiler. when I removed the minipeeper, flames from the burner shot back at me thru the tube we all jumped back-And he passed It!!!

KC_Jones

It must depend on what area you work in with respect to inspectors. My grandfather, father and I built a 24x24 addition on the back of my grandparents house back in 1991. In the area he lived they actually rotated inspectors periodically throughout the year. The reason was to help prevent "pay offs". Anyway one day in the middle of the week (we only worked on weekends) my grandfather gets a knock on the door. It was the new inspector and he noticed the work being done and just wanted to stop in and check the permits etc. They were very strict there, on each sign off of work done they inspector was there for at least 45 minutes walking everything down etc. Years later my father did some work for my uncle in another state. He put a new bathroom in the basement, they didn't inspect the electrical at all didn't do a rough plumbing inspection at all and on the final showed up for 5 minutes flushed the toilet checked for traps signed the permit and walked away. In my opinion inspections are like the wild west it's a free for all. I think (just my opinion) that is why they don't hold inspectors accountable. The government holds people responsible through the courts. The inspectors work for the government. Basically to prosecute an inspector the government would have to put themselves on trial...they aren't going to do that so contractors and property owners are left holding the bag. My question is if the inspector has zero responsibility, they aren't held accountable for what they do, then why do we even have permits? They are useless at that point.

SlamDunk

i dont know, but without permits and inspectors enforcing regulations, I have a feeling stories like this would be more common. there MUST be more good ones than lazy ones.

Gordy

Is it lazy or lack of proper skills, and education?

SlamDunk

I would say lazy encompasses poor education and lack of skills!

In fact, I would dare say many inspectors worked the minimum in a given trade and became inspectors to have an easier job, good benefits, hours and job security. Not all mind you. Some are really smart and care about safety. Just like many contractors love to practice their skills and ply their craft would never consider being a paper pusher.

In a small town like Boone, NC I would even bet money the inspector worked for the contractor at some point and didnt feel like he had to look too hard at the work.

RobG

When I built my first house (in Fairfax County Va.) I had an inspector (I will just call him Ricky Antonowitz). He showed up for a framing inspection while the roofers were shingling. One of the roofers had brought along his daughter as It was summer and school was out. The girl was sitting in her fathers truck in the driveway. Ricky proceeded to walk by the truck, wave to the girl then pull out his penis and urinate on the side of the house (my house) in full view of the child. I then grabbed the closest thing handy (a roll of tar paper) and hurled it at him (I missed, tar paper rolls are not easy to throw) and chased him to his truck. He drove away and I called his boss. He never did another inspection in Fairfax again. This was the same inspector that hit me up for Redskins tickets at the ground work inspection.

SlamDunk

You should have taken another shot.

KC_Jones

I think I would have pulled my pocket knife out.....