can manual isolation or zone valves control heat?

eabolden

Hello.
I have a continuous loop boiler baseboard heating system. There are three pipes, one for the lower level and two for the upper level of my split foyer house. There are no electronic zone valves on the pipes. There are isolation/purge valves on each return pipe. Does having the isolation valves partly closed help control the temperature of that area?

Basically I am trying to increase the temperature downstairs without cooking me upstairs.
Thank you for any insight.
Lizz

STEVEusaPA

It could work, depending on a few things. Could you post a pic of the valve, and the piping near the boiler.

hot_rod

It may be possible to add zone control, really need to see the piping to know for sure.

For now you can try closing down the dampers on the baseboard in the rooms that you want less heat.

The damper is the long metal strip at the top of the fin tube baseboard, it should rotate to open, closed or in between to adjust the output.

Here is an example of a common fin tube from Slant Fin. #4 shows the damper operation.

Ironman

It could be very difficult to throttle the valve to just the right spot where it lets the right amount of water through. Then there's the matter of the valve not being designed for it and flow erosion occurring over time.
Like HR said, close the dampers - that's the correct approach. If that doesn't work sufficiently, you'll need to zone it with ZVs or separate circ's.
It sounds like the original installer took the cheap route making it all one zone.

eabolden

Here are some pictures of my system. The Valves in question are on the two vertical pipes and the horizontal pipe. I took pictures from Both sides.
I am still trying to figure out why one room upstairs is always cold. The fin is open

We changed the auto vent valve on the expansion tank yesterday And bled out a lot of water which was dark brown. How would I know if my system had antifreeze in it?

I have had a bad experience with local heating ttechnicians. First company cleaned it and said it needed replacing do to rust and age. 2nd company said it was oversized but not rusty but replace. 3rd company knew I had a lot of conflicting advice said it was fine would probablyladt 10 more years. Gas company said it was fine when they can put to increase the gas pressure.

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Ironman

The loop that's not flowing properly could be air bound or balancing of flow may be needed.

You're in Northern VA? I'd highly recommend that you call Dan Foley of Foley Mechanical in Lorton. He's one of the best in this business. He'll fix it right.

bob_46

Lizz , in the photo ending in 924 on the two vertical pipes I see two balancing valves that are almost closed . Try turning them so that the slot is parallel to the pipe (wide open) see if that doesn't give you more heat upstairs .

eabolden

Thanks Ironman for the referral to Dan Foley but unfortunately it doesn't appear that he services my area. I am a little south in Prince William County.

Bob,
Part of the reason those isolation valves were set that way was to increase the heat in the lower level without overheating the upstairs. the only thermostat for the system is located in the lower level's hallway. I had been controlling the upstairs temperature by keeping the thermostat set pretty low downstairs, whichg results in a freezing lower level.

bob_46

Lizz, DUH , I just reread your original post please disregard my comments.

Ironman

Lizz,
If you'll p/m me I'll give you someone else to try.

RobG

Dan Foley is in Lorton, not far away from you. You will be hard pressed to find a more competent company.

eabolden

No Lorton is not far at all but it says his service area does not include where I live to the south.

RobG

Give him a call and say that you heard about his company here.

JimHerzog

Greetings,
I realize that this thread is 10 YEARS old. However, it describes the exact situation I have. A residential hydronic heat system, with 3 zones (2 upper, 1 lower) and only 1 circulating pump. The situation is the same: thermostat is in the lower level (the main area of concern) and when I try to get the temp comfortable there it becomes too warm upstairs. So I would like to try slightly closing the valves to the upstairs zone, with the hope of decreased flow will lead to decreased heat? Will that lead to damage?

Most pumping/HVAC companies have told me "We don't service those".
I am in the Greensboro, NC (aka Triad region). I'd appreciate any referral you can offer.

Jim H.

Intplm.

Slightly closing valves will not help. The heat will not care if slightly opened or closed. The heat will find a way through.

Question.
Do you have only one thermostat or other thermostats?
I ask because you say you have three zones, so you should have three thermostats, and three zone valves. If the issue is at just one upper zone with a dedicated thermostat then the thermostat is where I would look first
Thermostats can fail or be adjusted to correct this type of issue.
And you might have a Flo-control valve that is not working too.

All systems are not the same. Maybe post some pictures so we can have a better look.

JimHerzog

Thanks, I appreciate your response.

The system is piped for three areas/zones, however it is controlled by only 1 thermostat. I believe it is an on-off - it is a "heat only" single round thermostat.
There are no zone valves to speak of. Each line has a ball valve after it branches off the main output pipe.

JimHerzog

I will get a picture of it tonight.

Intplm.

JimHerzog said:

I will get a picture of it tonight.

Offer a few pictures of the system close up and a few feet away so that the piping, feed and return are clearly visible.

LRCCBJ

JimHerzog said:

Each line has a ball valve after it branches off the main output pipe.

You most certainly can close down the ball valve partially to reduce flow to the upstairs zone. With the ball valve increasing the restriction in the piping, the water will prefer to flow to the downstairs zones. One point to note is the non-linearity of the ball valve. You will get no benefit if you close it down approx. one half (valve at 45 degrees). Past this point, you will get significant restriction and it is an iterative process over several days (or weeks) to get the balance that you seek.

It's not an ideal approach due to the fact the ball valves are not designed for throttling, but it is an inexpensive solution that can work in the short term.

The preferred approach is to utilize three zone valves and three thermostats for perfect control of all three zones independently.

JimHerzog

Thank you I appreciate your expertise. This certainly will be a "trial & error" solution until this years heating season is done.

bburd

Another approach, which costs almost nothing to try, is to wrap part of the finned heating element in the baseboards of the rooms that get too warm with aluminum foil so air cannot flow through. You would need to do this only if closing the dampers does not reduce the heat sufficiently. You may need to experiment until you get the right amount of element covered to bring the system into balance.

The problem with closing those balancing valves is that you may end up with such a large temperature drop through each circuit that the baseboards toward the ends don't heat adequately.

hot_rod

There are many types of balance valves. While not the most sophisticated, the basic ball valve is a very common type.

The key with any control valve is proper sizing. Size by the flow rate not the pipe size.

This ball style balance valve has a readout meter built into it. Pull the ring, flow goes across the meter to adjust. Release the ring and flow goes through the valve. So flow is never going through the indicator window.

I would not close a ball valve off more than 50- 60% for balancing. If you need more flow adjustment go to the next size smaller valve so you operate in the first 1/2 of the ball movement.

LRCCBJ

hot_rod said:

I would not close a ball valve off more than 50- 60% for balancing. If you need more flow adjustment go to the next size smaller valve so you operate in the first 1/2 of the ball movement.

This is correct. Above 45 degrees closure (this is not 50% closure by any means), the noise level and turbulence climbs dramatically and the capability to modulate properly is diminished greatly.

Seek the range between 45 degrees and 55 degrees (based upon valve position).............not more.........not less.

JimHerzog

I will try that tonight. I have a way to accurately measure the angle of the handle to the pipe. I believe I will try 25 degrees and watch for the effect.

I like the idea of having a flow meter, it seems like it will be a more accurate way to measure and monitor the changes. However, any new hardware additions will have to wait until the spring/summer.

mattmia2

For what balancing valves with flow meters cost I'd just go with 3 zone valves unless there really isn't a way to sneak some thermostat wiring up to each zone.

JimHerzog

Here are a few pictures of the system.

JimHerzog

Thank you everyone. This is my first hydronic heater and I have already been taken advantage of.

hot_rod

Those valves are mostly there for purging air out, but you can also do some flow control adjustment. It will be a trial and error approach but it may get you the result you need

The valve on the tight us a butterfly type valve, adjust it with a screwdriver. It has a disc instead of a ball inside

JimHerzog

"The valve on the tight us a butterfly type valve, adjust it with a screwdriver. It has a disc instead of a ball inside"

Thanks. Should I try to keep the turn at about 20 degrees?

Jim

hot_rod

That valve may not turn easily based on the condition of the slot in it. Sometimes you can loosen that hex shaped nut around it and allow it to turn.

I wouldn’t get too deep into adjusting an old valve like that without a plan B should something break.

JimHerzog

I see what you mean about the valve on the right. I had wondered why there wasn't a handle on it. Looking at how large the slot is, I will leave it alone.

Intplm.

It will be interesting to hear if you have some if any success using the manual valves.
They are not designed for what you are attempting to do. Hope it works.

LRCCBJ

JimHerzog said:

Thanks. Should I try to keep the turn at about 20 degrees?

Jim

You are very unlikely to get any meaningful result with a 20 degree closure due to the non-linearity of the valve. If I were doing it, I would start at 45 degrees. I doubt the second floor will get colder than desired at that position.

hot_rod

Actually as soon as you make any change or movement from full open on a ball valve it will make flow adjustments.

Here is the B&G Circuit Setter, possibly the world most recognized circuit setter. It is a standard ball valve that can be preset and or confirmed with a differential meter. As the chart shows any movement in the ball position will change the flow rate.

I just filmed a video showing this with the Caleffi Quicksetter also. A few degrees movement does change the flow rate, in this example 1 gpm . It is easier to see with a digital readout that can measure 1/10 increments

The issue with a non characterized type ball valve is accuracy across the range, and at the low end just a very tiny movement creates a jump in flow. So very hard to be accurate when the ball is almost closed. You will start to get noise at the low end and you have two sharp edges of the ball exposed to wear.

In your case without any meters or way to measure the flowrate it will be trial and error. Also how much change you actually are trying to make.

Also a pic of a characterized ball.

JimHerzog

Greetings,

Having turned the one ball valve to 30 degrees, there has been a lower temp in the rooms services by that zone. But the drop was only 1-2 degrees. While it is better than nothing, it was not as much as I had hoped (4-5 degrees). I have stared to use a strategy of lowering the thermostat for the hydronic system down 4 degrees beginning around 5:00 pm, so there there is time to cool before going to bed; and then going back up at 5:00 am for the day. I am using an electric heater to supplement the one room I commonly use downstairs.

This isn't the best way, but it seems to be ,... okay.

Jim