Tankless water heaters

Steve_210

I have a AO smith cyclone BTH 199 that I need to replace, not thet it cannot be done but it is a major project to get that one and get the new one in because of where it is located, and things that Have been done since it was installed.
Therefore looking at a tankless I downloaded the Bosch sizing app.it is gives me the C 1210 ES.
I always have the option of putting a second one in later if demand is not enough but I have checked it three times.
Has anybody used these Bosch I have not used any so far, The tappings are only three quarter-inch Just a little concerned it can give you the hot water it's it claims to,
Any advice Greatly appreciated.

Steve_210

Bump

HDE_2

Tanks can give a abundance of flow depending on pipe, pressure and friction of system. A quality tankless can deliver a steady stream of consistent water at a preset temp, limited to its BTU fire capacity and temperature rise required.

To replace a BTH199, it will typically take 3-4 199K tankless to meet the peak GPM that a tank of that size may see. Bearing in mind a tank with a large draw requires recovery time to bring temp back up or it will deliver less than setpoint temp.

BTU for BTU replacement is not the way to go with tankless, nor is gallons per hour, like a tank is rated. Its always PEAK GPM REQUIRED for tankless

Steve_210

What about using a tankless with a storage tank

Steve_210

Okay I'm now looking at a bosch C1210 ESC with an AO Smith TJV 80 gallon storage tank.
Really appreciate you earlier help I would just go to BGH 199 but with the weight it is very hard to get in there

Steve_210

Your earlier help and BTH 199, sorry I could not seem to edit that last post

Zman

Do need a heater that big.
What is the application and usage?

HDE_2

Steve said:

What about using a tankless with a storage tank

Not always a good idea because of tankless rise/recovery and pumped flow limitations of tankless, along with accessories and pump needed, increases cost to tank or multiple tankless costs.

Steve_210

Thanks guys it is a restaurant to be safe I need 230 gallons per hour

Steve_210

Please See picture of existing that is leaking

HDE_2

Steve said:

Thanks guys it is a restaurant to be safe I need 230 gallons per hour

A tankless can give you 230 gallons per hour perhaps, that's only 3.84 gallons per minute. But what it cant do is give you 10 gallons per minute when multiple fixtures are drawing.

That's the difference between tanks and tankless, not being able to compare BTU's. That's why I said the tankless replacement for the tank could be three tankless units, but a proper sizing is required.

Zman

Restaurants are a different game. This will vary from state to state.
Where I am (Colorado), the state health department has a specific calculation that has to be done to assure that the hot water needed to sanitize is always available.
Tank vs Tankless is a different formula.
If you made the swap you are suggesting here,without doing the calcs and getting approval, you would fail your next health department inspection.
Look into your local regulations to be sure your Butt is covered.

Carl

Steve_210

Thanks guys I think I'm going to just stick with replacing what's there.
Is the only way to be safe

SWEI

100/199's are not at all cheap if you replace them as regularly as many users do. If they're using two or three of them, a high capacity 119 gallon indirect with a 399 mod/con will easily outperform and outlast the commodity tanks.

RobG

Or a modcon with a reverse indirect If continuous flow is needed.

Steve_210

Thanks again guys great advice will keep in mind for the next one

Jack

I've seen many many restaurants done with tankless alone as well as tankless/storage. I seldom recommend a single tankless regardless of how small and light the places hot water requirements are. It is a commercial establishment and redundancy is very valuable. Typically the sizing is done on tankless with storage and without. Properly sized and laid out they are excellent systems.

SWEI

Jack, Rob, Carl, and I are basically saying the same thing: If you can reasonably define your continuous and peak demands, you can easily size a system to meet them. If you can't, you are just guessing, which rarely results in a happy customer.

Steve_210

Yes very much appreciated guys, it is wonderful that we can come to a place like heating help And get this sort of advice thanks again.
None of us will ever know everything so hopefully we can all help each other out.

Rich_49

If you can at all get a tank type in there , try one of the Sanitizers . http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-191i.pdf
If you have a need to go tankless , there is a whole new breed ,
http://www.htproducts.com/hydrasmart-commercial.html or
http://www.htproducts.com/hydrasmart.html . Yeah , HTP making better stuff again . I am interested in your thoughts on these Carl , Rob and Kurt and whoever I forgot .

Steve_210

I went with a tankless And 80 Gallon storage tank
Everything working great.

Steve_210

Rich I will save your links your tankless looks very interesting

RobG

Rich, It looks like a nice unit(s) and I would like to try one in a system where I could size it for the application. The problem that I see would be the price point. Most homeowners and business owners would not pay for the higher quality if a Rinnai will give them the same GPM, they would rather spend the $$$ on a BMW. The other problem is availability for restaurant / hotel retrofits. When their water heaters go out it's a mad scramble to try and find a replacement, yesterday!

Have you installed many? How are they in comparison to other brands?

Rich_49

Always the price point . Why is it that everyone thinks HTP stuff is more expensive than other equipment when in all actuality this is not the case . What are the odds that all 3 or 4 burners and HXs take a dump simultaneously ? Pretty low I would imagine . Kinda gives the owner a sense of security along with the fact that these are not your average Rinnai , Navien , HXs . You did notice that these are redundant units and cascaded did you not Rob ? Me thinks any job that would require multiple units or had a space issue and a large demand these would be the ticket . If they cost a bit more how much could you save only plumbing 1 unit as opposed to 3 - 4 ?

Rich_49

No, have not installed one yet . Quite honestly you'd need a hell of a demand to require one of these and I probably as always would search for a reason not to use a tankless . That being said if I had to use a tankless there would be no need for me to look to another manufacturer than the folks in Mass . I have installed the residential Hydra Smart and can honestly say it outperforms anything else we've installed prior . I was at HTP in October and did lay eyes on these units and along with the new EFTC-140F combi . These guys are not BSing in the engineering department , these are guys like us building stuff that we would build , not mechanical engineers listening to a marketing departments , bean counters and DOE

RobG

Rich, I am speaking primarily of the residential when I am talking price. The availability is the issue when it comes to all of the units. I called my rep and found that no one even stocks the product in my neck of the woods. I would love to do a job that the engineer specified the product (that's the reps job, not mine) and I had the opportunity to order it in, but as it is, if it's not available, it's not getting sold.