Random recycling EZpro1 SGO-5

Pete_18

I have a WM SGO-5 with a Carlin EZPro1 which randomly decides to recycle. I had thought perhaps my cad cell was bad because during normal run operation it is reading at 1400-1500 ohms on my R7284 primary and randomly recycling during initial fire or run time, but I replaced the cad cell and there was no difference. Cad cell tested fine with minimal light it read in the 200-500 ohms range and goes crazy high when covered up. My primary was replaced with the R7284 when I was previously receiving lockouts, so while the primary could be bad, it seems unlikely.

I have been battling this for a while and asked the oil tech to make sure he runs a combustion test this time around since he failed to do so last year.

Nozzle is back to factory spec, but the air band is currently set much lower than what it calls for with this nozzle. If you set the air band higher and close to the 1.40 spec setting, the ohms goes crazy to like 2000-3000. Does this mean that the mix to fuel to air is off? Perhaps there is a problem with the pump strainer or pump which is causing the oil output to be lower than it should be or is there any other explanation for the high ohms reading during normal run time. Fire seems nice and bright when you look at it. I am expecting that the ohms reading should be in the 200-500 range (at least under 1000) during normal operation. Even if the mix is off, shouldn't the ohms reading be in a normal range since there is bright fire burning away?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. My oil tech is very nice, but I am afraid that he has no idea how to troubleshoot this problem and any pointers I can give him to finally get this fixed so that I don't lock out this winter is much appreciated.

billtwocase

replace the cad cell socket/leads/eye complete

Pete_18

Thanks, I will give that a try. Someone else suggested that I test end-to-end using the leads/socket, I will try that as well. I had only tried direct with the cad cell.

STEVEusaPA

All the settings including the nozzle, air band and head adjustment should be returned to the original factory specs, then a full combustion test should be properly performed. The fact that he didn't perform a combustion test last time is troublesome--no matter how 'nice' he seems.
Nuisance lockouts require patience, skill & experience. Usually it's from a lack of a consistent method of troubleshooting and a failure to know how to properly test each component.
At this point you should see, or have seen, pump & vacuum gauges, a meter on the cad cell leads, and a clamp on meter checking components.
Could even be something easy, like incorrect draft, loose wires, etc.
If your tech is an owner/operator you may need a new company. If he's part of a larger company, call & ask for the service manager to come out with him.

Pete_18

Thanks for advice. I agree on returning all the settings back to factory, I already had him to do this with the nozzle last winter when I first started having problems. Unfortunately as I mentioned when the air band is placed near factory spec (1.40), the ohms reading is 2000-3000 range, which is why I was asking if perhaps there is a pump issue since it seems like combustion is off when the correct air band setting is in use.

I did do a test of the cad cell connected to the socket and leads and it tested fine, so I'm not sure it makes sense to replace the socket/leads just for the sake of replacing them since its reading looked good. This is of course disconnected from the control since I have no way to test the reading while it is operating other than what the control reports to me.

Steamhead

If the fuel unit has a solenoid valve, that may be going bad. This is something you'd have to catch in the act- ask me how I know that.................

Pete_18

I think it does from a quick online search, it is a Suntec A2VA-3006. Is the solenoid something you fix or do you just replace the fuel pump? How does one troubleshoot this to know if this is it? (What happens if the fuel pump solenoid is going haywire?)

STEVEusaPA

Pete, all of these components can be properly tested with the right equipment by a qualified tech. Seems to me we're going from you getting some additional info to help the tech along, to you trying to do this yourself. Please don't start swapping every component in hopes to get lucky. Get a qualified tech in there and get your problem(s) solved.

Pete_18

Hi Steve, no plans to do this myself, but I also don't want to pay for a bunch of parts to be swapped to guess if they are defective, so if there was something I could point him to in order to know if this is the issue, it would be helpful. For example, maybe when he looks at the fuel pump pressure it will be way off if the solenoid is not working right? Pressure on this pump is supposed to be set @ 140psi based on burner spec and the sticker on top of it. This is the pointer I was looking for. Also, if it is the solenoid, is this a simple repair? The part seems pretty inexpensive.

I am sure there are better oil people out there, but because we don't buy from a full service oil company, we have to find our own standalone tech since the big companies who do full service primarily service their own customers only. I have tried 4 independent oil service people in the area and at least this guy has proven reliable and available when I needed him for emergencies. I completely understand he does not have the best knowledge, but he's the best of who I have found to date since at least he comes out when we have an emergency. The other 3 independent service people also failed to run combustion tests and willy nilly decided to downsize my nozzle outside of the burner spec because they felt it was a good thing to do, so I unfortunately was no better off with them either. At least when I told him I wanted a nozzle matching spec, he listened, other companies ignored me and did what they wanted to. In a perfect world, someone would only put on nozzles that match the specs and would run an electronic combustion test for me before leaving every year, but for whatever reason, the independents are taking shortcuts in this area and are not investing in the equipment.

RobG

You may have said earlier, but where are you located?

STEVEusaPA

I'm not interested in starting an argument, nor am I interested in telling you how to tell some hack how to troubleshoot and test every component on your heating system. You've been working on this problem for a long time, and it's something that could've been solved much quicker, or even avoided by bringing in a competent professional.

..."In a perfect world, someone would only put on nozzles that match the specs and would run an electronic combustion test for me before leaving every year...."

You don't need a perfect world, just a competent tech. This is done correctly all the time by myself and others like me.

"...we don't buy from a full service oil company...."

There's the rub. You saved money on the oil, and now are going through all the problems with service. Now you're saying 4 independent oil techs are all incompetent. Independents live and die by their reputation. There are very good ones, hopefully someone in your neighborhood can recommend one. Or maybe it's time to try a full service company?

Look at all the aggravation you are going through to save a buck?
Surely I hope you don't so this with your autos, other appliances, or your health?

Pete_18

Thanks Steve, I appreciate all your help so far, you definitely are not required to help me get my problem fixed if you don't want to help my incompetent technician (and me!). To be honest, I have seen just as much incompetence with my first full service oil company, they let my chamber completely collapse in my previous boiler and didn't bother to do anything about it during the annual cleaning and were too lazy to vacuum in the chamber.

Since I buy a lot of oil to heat my house, it works out a very significant price difference each heating season plus a service contract on top which I don't want, I just want to pay when I need someone for an emergency or a part or to do a tune-up/cleaning. I don't mind paying for a competent technician any time they come out, I just haven't found many. I had no problem paying a competent plumber a decent sum of money to weld a nipple on to my steam lines so that I could properly vent my main. Unfortunately he is 45m away and has no interest in this type of work, he only wants big jobs.

You guys are rare. Just like I am rare in my field, you work in a field where frankly a lot of people aren't even close to as intelligent as you or Steamhead and are too ignorant to pay attention to specs or manuals because they know better. I have argued with way too many people who refused to use boiler specified nozzle sizes because they knew better.

The person who installed my boiler used to advertise on here I had to argue with him to use the correct size pipe on my boiler per spec since he wanted to downsize it, in the end, he refused to follow the spec and I ended up with 2 1/2 inch vs. 3 (or whatever it was that the manual called for). Another guy who I used to hire who advertised on here but has since moved to a different place scratched my entire wood floor up switching out a radiator valve because he wasn't careful and couldn't be bothered to put a towel down when moving the radiator out of the way.

My point being over the years I have tried full service, heatinghelp "pro" advertisers and independents and it's not like anyone has blown me away. If I lived in MD and could hire Steamhead, I would in a heartbeat. Instead, I'm stuck with what I have and I'm going to make the best of it and hope I can get this issue resolved so you won't have to hear from me begging for help for a long time

Thanks again, appreciate everyones thoughts.

STEVEusaPA

Pete, you didn't mention where you are from. Someone from the wall has to be close enough to help. Some of us like a challenge.
Please don't lump me and Steamhead together as far as experience. He's vastly experienced and has easily forgot more then Ill ever learn. Hey if I were in a jam, especially steam-related...I'd call Steamhead, too.

Incompetence, or just not being experienced is pretty much everywhere anymore, sadly. I'm definitely not saying a full service company is the only way to go..they are full of incompetent people too, as your experience has shown.

It's not that I don't want to help, it's just that it's so much easier & quicker to solve this problem by putting my eyes & hands on the equipment. Plus I'm not big on giving advice on something that could go real wrong, real fast, and be potential dangerous.

STEVEusaPA

Additionally, You could put this control on your burner
http://www.carlincombustion.com/download/instman/controls/MN70200_SmartIgnition_022414.pdf
It may give you the diagnostic info you need fix your problem.

Pete_18

I have a R7284, the diag info from this control looks pretty similar. I am located on the North Shore of Boston MA.

Paul48

I know there's someone from Southern NH on here.

icesailor

FWIW, I've experienced something like this with that burner. It was on a Weil-Mclain 568 vented with a SS-1 Side Shot. The key is in the running ohms and the erratic running. The one I had had a CCT 606002 control. Although the control is rated up in the high ohm ranges, and it always saw a flame, Combustion numbers were mostly on the numbers. I didn't do the original install. It was down rated from 1.50 GPH to 1.00 GPH. just to keep it running when I got there. It was recycling through the burner blast tube on Post Purge. There wasn't enough available make up air.

Cutting to the chase, I had tried new Cad Cells, and even holders. It probably was recycling when no one was around. Finally one day, I took a new complete assembly ( old age and a failing memory, I forget the Honeywell Number) but I connected my Multi-tester and the connected cell assembly and checked it. Over 1,000 Ohms. If I gave it more or less air, the numbers went down. So did the good numbers. I've often used Ohm Meters to check for the sweet spot on initial set-ups. I connected the second new cad cell assembly and had it outside the housing. With no light, it read appropriately. Shining a light at the cad cell made it run. The installed eye wasn't seeing enough reflected light.

You can not "see" what the "eye" can see with your eyes. What I found (in my opinion) was that the flame could pull away from the retention head and the flame intensity could diminish. Those high Ohm Readings shouldn't be there. They should be lower. You will never find it unless you have a digital analyzer.

Tell that qualified tech that if he doesn't own and use EVERY TIME, a digital analyzer, he doesn't know what he is doing. Tell that to him for me. What I learned about combustion from my DA, I could write volumes about. And I used a "Wet Kit" for over 30 years. All oil burner tech's that want to keep working, are going to be working on Gas. If they want to work on Gas, they absolutely must have a Digital Analyzer. And negative pressure gauges.

Whatever your problems are. it all revolves around draft. You can't check it with that pocket "Draft Rite" gauge. You need a REAL gauge. Like the Bacharach one that has long hoses and you can read from across the room. Regardless if you have poor eyesight.

In this case, I thoroughly cleaned the air tube assembly and shined it up with sand cloth for better reflectivity. I might have even painted it silver inside. But the Ohm numbers went way down after I did it.

STEVEusaPA

Although draft is another consideration for nuisance lockouts, I strongly disagree with painting the inside of the air tube silver to better reflect light to the cad cell eye. You're actually trying trick the primary safety into thinking its seeing a brighter, cleaner burning fire.
No manufacturer would ever condone this practice, and I wouldn't want to be answering questions from a lawyer, fire investigator, or my insurance company as to why I tampered with a burner and negated or caused a delay in shutting down a burner by altering its primary safety control.

Steamhead

Thanks, Steve

This brings to mind a job we did this week- servicing the two Smith 19HE-6 boilers at our local steam heating museum (see http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151036/lovely-lane-methodist-church-a-steam-heating-museum#latest ). These have PowerFlame C1-O burners with Honeywell R7284 primaries, which have digital displays showing the control status and operating parameters. This was the first time we serviced them.

The head of the building committee is very detail-oriented, which is one thing that makes him a pleasure to work with. He had noted that the cad cell ohm readings on Boiler #2 were much higher than on Boiler #1, even though both appeared to be running properly.

We found that the retention heads on these burners have holes in them, maybe 7/16" diameter, to allow light to reach the cad cell- sort of like what Beckett did on the NX burner. The cad cell was not aligned properly with the hole in the head, and that's why the ohms were so high. It wasn't off by that much, but it was enough that the cad cell just couldn't see the light properly. The fix was simple, and now the ohm readings are close to those on Boiler #1.

I'm told this had been an issue since the boilers were installed several years ago. The installing contractor had "serviced" them last year but the problem persisted. My friend George Lanthier has a very strong opinion about situations like this, in his excellent book "Advanced Residential Oilburners". He was talking about burner mounting flanges that were welded improperly, but it applies here too: "Even (if it came like that from the factory) I will fault the installer. Why? Because you didn't check it!"

Amen.

STEVEusaPA

Agreed. Could be something as simple as someone cranking down the nut that holds the electrodes, partially blocking the holes that allow the light thru, or even not running a pipe cleaner thru the holes that have lint partially blocking the light (this wouldn't be an EZ1 problem, but seen it on plenty o' Becketts).

icesailor

First of all, I didn't say that I had actually painted the inside with silver paint. Because that would have required a trip to get the paint. And I didn't do that. A new 5" or 7" tube for an EZ-1 is bare metal. The outside is painted black. After years of service, oil mist and dust can cover the inside of the tube, causing a drop in reflectivity. With Beckett AFG's, they have a long established habit of developing a hard carbon deposit in the inside rim of the end cone ring. Which makes the spark short out. Every Becket AF or AFG I ever touch, the first thing I check is the carbon and clean it off with an old copper fitting brush. I have another brush that was bent 90 degrees so I could scrape the inside, chamber side.

I have very large hands. XL gloves often won't fit me. But when I extracted my large paw from the inside of these Beckett burners, my paw was often covered with oil and lint. AKA: Grime. I always took a rag and wiped out the inside of the tube. I never found the oily residue in a EZ-1 tube. I still, always checked and wiped them out anyway. There is no "sight" hole in an EZ-1 tube nor in any other burner that I ever ran into that is of the Modern Era in residential oil burners.

I attended a class that was put on where Firedragon was the instructor. He discussed his use of a Ohm Meter and a Cad Cell for setting up oil burners. That became part of my arsenal of troubleshooting guides. I have the article he had on the Firedragon site saved. You would be surprised at what you can figure out when you have two C554 cad cell assemblies that you can move around and check things after you have jumped the FF terminals. And you have kept a record of some of the things you have noticed in your travels.

I only mentioned painting the inside of a tube with silver paint to show that reflectivity can have a part of an issue. The fact that Firedragon was so adamantly opposed to the idea had some merit to me. EZ-1 burner heads are not like AFG heads. All the light comes through the head through the retention ring. Afg's come through the entire non-removable head. This was a removable head, easily cleaned. It was clean.

SS-1's have a 3 pass venting system. One of the passes takes air from outside. One takes it from inside, recycled by the outside throttle ring assembly. The other is the hot exhaust. This application in a new house (1995) didn't have any make up air for the boiler/burner NOR FOR THE POWER VENTER. As long as the burner motor was running, it could overcome the draft of the PV. Which no matter how hard you tried, you couldn't get optimum with a Digital Analyzer. Before I made the burner motor run pre-purge and post purge with the PV, if it did a normal Post Purge, and the burner motor wasn't running, you would burn your fingers taking the nozzle assembly out. This was a boiler that was rated to fire at 1.55 GPH. It would NOT fire at 1.10 GPH. It had been downrated long before I ever got there. YEARS before.

Instead of getting all twisted over painting the inside of a blower tube silver, the bigger question should be about if you have a problem with the control going off, and replacing the cad cell doesn't solve it, but painting the inside of the tube silver and it resolves it, that's where the focus should be. WHY. Not that you shouldn't do it. What about it is making the silver make it work and not doing anything makes it the same, you start asking yourself questions. No other application is doing this with the same burner, so what is it about this application that is different?

It was the DRAFT!!!!!. Silver paint or shining the inside of the tube was a symptom of what was wrong. The cause was the draft. Another form of hydraulic flow.

In reviewing what I have said, I remember now that my final solution was to put TWO 7" Field "RC Barometric's on the 7" stack going into the SS-1. The SS-1 created so much draft/velocity that it made the flame reflection too low, causing the high Ohm readings. The 602000 control instructions said it was good up to 1600 Ohms. It was tripping at 1,000 to 1,200. It would be running merrily for an hour and then just stop. Recycle and start.

STEVEusaPA

Ice, thanks for your detailed response. All things I agree with. I didn't mean to imply you did, I just wanted to make sure the H/O, whose trying anything to solve his problem, didn't think this was good idea.

Pete_18

Annual service and adjustments below were completed today, ohms reads around 790-~<1000 during normal run time. I will keep an eye on it to see if it recycles at all going forward, it hasn't been that long, but hasn't happened yet. No 300-500ohms for me. The only way to get the ohms marginally lower was to increase the air band, but it did not run without smoke when doing this. Tech said that the reason the air band is not set close to the 1.40 spec is because of the draft.

Pump strainer was checked/not clogged, pressure was checked, it was running at 125, so it was adjusted to 140 (spec, what it was supposed to be set from factory)

Nozzle replaced with same size, matching 1.20 60B spec, oil filter was replaced

Smoke test was performed and air band was adjusted for no smoke

Net stack temp was 350 (420-70)

CO2 was 10%

Draft was .04

Chimney was checked and was pretty clean. Boiler & chamber went through thorough cleaning and vacuuming

Let me know if there is anything else that should have been checked. At this point I will assume 790-1000 is OK ohms reading, even though I was hoping for 300-500 unless I start to see random recycling again.

Thanks again for all of your help.

icesailor

IMO,

The boiler is being over fired for the conditions. The SGO-5 is rated for 1.45 GPH. A 1.20 GPH nozzle run at 140# equals a 1.45 GPH nozzle. You are trying to jamb too many nuts into the nut bag, The last unknowledgeable dropped the pump pressure to down fire it. I always found that it was better to raise the pump pressure (for better atomization) and drop the nozzle size.

If you really want to learn how combustion works, you need to buy a digital combustion analyzer and play with it.

Drop a nozzle size and start all over.

The SGO-5 probably comes standard with a Delavan 1.20 GPH 60 degree B nozzle. That is maximum firing rate. You can almost always get better numbers when dropping down a size. Make sure that the nozzle strainer is squeaky clean. If you have to swap one from a brand new nozzle of a different size, do it. You can always change it back if it is OK. The numbers should be repeatable. If not, the nozzle strainer is getting fouled. If you don't have a Spin-on filter, you can be fouling the strainer and you will never know.

You want to make it run awesomely at a lower firing rate so you know what you have available. Once there, you can raise up the size and see if you can duplicate the earlier results. If you can't, then you need to go back.
IMO.

Pete_18

Unfortunately I am done w/ adjustments for this year unless it goes haywire recycling again, but next year I can have him try a 1.00 70B if you think I am better off.

He had already downfired it in a previous year to a 0.85 nozzle which was not listed as a spec nozzle and I made him put a spec nozzle on it when I started noticing issues w/ recycling & random lockouts last year. There was some reason he didn't like the 1.00 70B nozzle which I can't remember, which is the only other factory spec nozzle according to the manual.

In terms of better numbers, I think the math worked out to 83.5% efficiency and the boiler is only rated at 83.9%, so it seems that was OK, I was more just concerned on why my ohms reading is higher than this 300-500 magic range which I was supposed to see.

icesailor

No, you MUST use the nozzle types that Carlin specifies. If they specify a Delavan 60 Degree B nozzle, you really should use a nozzle that they recommend. Because Carlin has professional combustion engineers that test fire their burners with the appropriate nozzles to get the highest and best numbers.

A .85 nozzle is way too small to fire into that boiler chamber. A 70 degree nozzle can give you impingement on the cast iron and cause premature failure.

It was my long time experience that when faced with a new burner/boiler that wasn't running properly and serviced by others, the first thing I did was go back to basics. Like what the manufacturer suggested using. When I went back and started over, I could always get back to where I wanted to be. You can't just start trying nozzles in the box to see if they work. They won't.

Pete_18

Right, so there are only two spec nozzles, 1.20 60B and 1.00 70B. 1.20 60B is what we're back to now. it sounds like you don't like a 70 nozzle either, so what nozzle were you recommending since it doesn't sound like a 1.00 70B would be a better option next year and it's the only other factory spec nozzle for the SGO-5 other than the 1.20 60GB which we're running.

icesailor

This is the Carlin Spec # for your Weil-McLain SGO-5 Carlin Burner.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/Carlin Burner Manual Supplement.pdf

billtwocase

another thing to throw into the mix. Do you have the plates? As you change firing rates, you need to match the plate with the nozzle. This will reposition the gun assembly. As Ice said, you need an analyzer, otherwise you are not on the right track

Pete_18

The head bar is the 1.10/1.25 head bar, assuming that's what you mean by plates. As I mentioned, I'm not even sure if anything is wrong at this point as everything seemingly tested fine, I just was hoping when all was said and done and tested alright I would be in this magical 300-500ohms range, and i'm in the 790-1000 ohms range. Either way, will just leave it alone at this point unless it goes in to its recycle funny business again.

icesailor

"" The head bar is the 1.10/1.25 head bar, assuming that's what you mean by plates. As I mentioned, I'm not even sure if anything is wrong at this point. ""

Trust me/us. Things are not right. The EZPRO-1 is a OEM burner that Carlin supplies to Weil-McLain for that boiler. They do NOT supply the burner with additional head positioning bars. So, no matter what the previous tech did when he tried the .85 GPH nozzle, he could have never gotten enough static pressure through the throttle ring to get any good reading. Unless he happened to be carrying around extra bars from previous burners. Which is doubtful. The next lower bar (.85/1.00 GPH) bar would fit the nozzles below 1.10 GPH. that are in the above range. They have a specific bar for smaller nozzles. .75, .65 and .50. On the other end, 1.25/1.35 GPH. 1.50, and 1.65 GPH.

icesailor

"" I just was hoping when all was said and done and tested alright I would be in this magical 300-500ohms range, and i'm in the 790-1000 ohms range. ""

Don't look to the 300-500 Ohm range to be the Holy Grail of oil burner set-ups. Firedragon had a document up at one time when he advocated using Multi-meters to help set up burners. I had it saved on another dread computer. I had a hard copy. I don't anymore. There are many things that can affect the Ohm reading. Dirty inside of the air tube syndrome. There is a lot of variation between one burner brand and another when using a multi-meter and differences between same brand burners. From my experience. You're measuring light reflectivity. A dirty tube can change it. Only once did I ever run into a situation like you describe. It was difficult. I've described it here.

billtwocase

Maybe they were in the "J" box under the cad cell relay? When they were generous years ago, they would hide a bag with all sizes either there or in the housing under the transformer. I have a few bags

icesailor

They don't come with a OEM burner, specifically set up for a particular boiler. It will have the maximum rated nozzle installed and the proper plate and adjustments.

billtwocase

They don't anymore Ice, back not that long ago, OEM also, AF-2's had a bag of firing pins, Carlin had a bag with the plates. This was not cost effective anymore I guess. Earlier Golds came that way to me anyway. Good thing with getting the set of AF-2 pins was that the wrong one was usually installed by the OEM. Maybe someone stole yours Ice?

icesailor

Whenever I bought a burner only, it came with a bag of plates. If I got a burner in a box, specifically made for a particular boiler like a Weil McLain, it came with the tuber and the flange welded to the tube. No guess work. Weil-McLain stopped sending out boilers with burners installed. So, you ordered a boiler, say a WGO-5 with a Carlin EZ-1 and it came through with the nozzle installed for that WGO-5. No need for any plates unless you were going to use it in a WGO-4. The old plates were red. The newer ones are silver. I had quite a collection on a heavy piece of wire hanging in the van. For immediate use. Like when someone had the wrong plate for the nozzle.

Pete_18

Wanted to provide an update. It in fact was cad cell related, just wasn't the cad cell eye. Over the past few days, ohms had been reporting like 3000-4000 and control just kept complaining about high cad cell reading during run. I went and replaced the entire cad cell hookup this time, not just the eye and now the ohms is in fact humming along in the magical range (~430ohms). Thanks again for everyone's help here. You guys are awesome.

Pete_18

Duplicate post (site won't let me remove it)

icesailor

I always had a new spare with me to compare. I don't remember ever having a cell only as the cause of the problem, but mostly, the whole cell assembly. I always replaced it as a whole item.