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help need wiring!! Completely lost!

defftoad74
defftoad74 Member Posts: 5
edited September 2014 in Radiant Heating
so here is the deal, im taking over a dhw,heating job for a friend bc his plumber ran and took off with the money.
its a combi system from HTP Verson-Hydro model#PHE130-55/199-55. All the materials were provided to me. running heat and dhw for a 19th century carriage house so its not too large. The system have two zones and was designed by an engineer but has no wiring guides. bottom floor is radient and top floor is your simple basebaord. all piping was installed, which is straight foward with the exception of a mixing valve for dhw.

So here is the problem that bothers me and troubling my mind... the old plumber bought three 6 zone relay panels with proirity (Taco SR506-EXP-4), two zone valves from Calieffi, and 5 Thermo-electric Actuator (TwisTop™) for the radient manifold. one thermostat for the baseboard and one for the radient. First on the schematic it shows on the baseboard loop using both a circulator and a zone valve which make no sense. If thats needed how do i wire that. Aslo the return from both the radient and baseboard is tied into the the radient heating mixing valve. having both a circulator and 4 wire zone valve on the baseboard zone made no sense to me. unless the designer is using the zone valve as a check valve so the radient return wont flow through the baseboard zone? Attached is the only schematic i recieved. The boiler itself has its own circulator pump that is pre-wired in the boiler

My real problem is the wiring. First do I connect 2 relay panels to the boiler? the baseboard part is not the problem, the radient heat is where im confused. In the panel since there is only one thermostat do I wire all the 6 thermostat zones together? and with the calieffi actuators, wire one each per zone and on the 6th(priority) wire the circulator so they work all together? This is the first time working with thermo actuators and have done very simple radient systems years ago. I figured the actuators are supposed to balance the system?. as for the other relay panel, they were going to separate the radient into two zones. one for the living space and one for the kitchen and bath. its an complete open floor plan.

I dont understand why the plumber purchased three 6 zone relays in the first place unless he wanted to charge more to my friend or whatever.

Please help!

image

Comments

  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    I can't open your attachment. But here's my take. You need a SR502 to drive the bb pump and the radiant pump. Put the SR506s on ebay. Assume the thermal heads are 4 wire? Get something like Uponors ZCM panel to operate the heads/zones from stat calls and send signal to the SR502. You say there are 2 radiant zones. Try to incorporate slab sensors into the stats. Viega or Uponor stats work well. Viega is simpler to operate.

    Keep the return from the bb loop seperate from the radiant return to the mixer...it's going to to look for cooler water to blend, not 160 from the bb so to speak.

    The thermal heads do no balancing.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    The hodgepodge of zone valves/punps is nonsense. Use a dedicated pump for the bb loop such as a Grundfos 15/58 with internal flocheck set on medium speed and I would use a ECM pump with internal flocheck on the radiant side such as a Taco Bumblebee or Grundfos Alpha to keep flow correct whether one radiant zone is calling or both are.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,879
    looks like you have 5 TwistTop actuators on the radiant manifold, and a zone valve for the HWBB loop.

    A 6 zone relay box would run this. Wire the stats to the top, zone valves to the bottom. The relay calls on the boiler via TT.

    With the Caleffi ZV relay you get the ability to run 3 pumps, so all this could be wired with one control the ZVR106.

    Plus, from Caleffi you get a 5 year warranty on the relay and the zone valves.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,879
    If you change P1 to a Grundfos Alpha,that pump just plugs into the wall, always powered. It will AutoAdapt to the zone valves requirements.

    The Alpha will also save energy $$, about 40% less power consumption.

    Then P2 wires to the board and fires when that ZV calls. Very simple wiring.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    How many radiant zones Deft ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,879
    here is the piping
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,807
    I am confused by the combination of zone valves and zone circulators. You really don't need both. If I am understanding correctly, you only have 2 t-stats and 2 zones?
    Unless you plan on repiping this, you should leave the zone valves open (return the actuators) and use one of the controllers you have to control the 2 zones and 2 circulators.
    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    How bout this ? Use a Taco or Caleffi 3 zone valve controller . Put T Stats to a zone and let it open a zone valve . Use the end switch from the controller to signal the boiler and let the boiler power the pump , that's right one pump . Use Delta T , Delta P , whichever . Oh yeah don't forget the head loss through the FPHX because the pump will need to have all the head loss added together , maybe the Engineer forgot about that . 3.6 ft + whatever the head loss through you HX is at your load , it looks like the Versa charts are there I just cannot read them .
    Also remember to eliminate the make up water from the expansion tank and air elimination and install it on the feed water port on the left side of the space heating module where it belongs , see it depicted in the drawing .
    Also hope your baseboard is sized appropriately for <160* water because that is a limitation of the Versa . I would actually get another manifold and hit each room separately off of that and get rid of the series loop if it's not too much of a PITA or not too late .
    How many BTUs could this system be called on to provide ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    In case you're wondering , I have less controls on a 24 zone 7,300 sq ft house using this equipment .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • defftoad74
    defftoad74 Member Posts: 5
    Thanks guys for all the input. Some of the information given I already new but the problem is the homeowner purchased all the items and had the engineer design the system in 2011! They ran out of money during construction, not my business.
    But with the relay panel I have (Taco ZVC406-3) couldn't I wife the calieffi actuators to the first 5 zones on the panel and wire the BB loop zone valve to zone 6 (priority) and add a secondary pump to the panel? I know it's not as efficient but the owner can't return anything and had suggested to sell the remaining parts and buying a new manifold but refuses bc he invested a ton on this system which I think is overkill if you saw the size of the late 18th century carriage house...
    Again the reason why the engineer gave him three 6 zone relay panels bothers my mind and probably ripped him him. Or maybe he thought he wanted to separate the two zones he originally designed for the radient heat. Now there is only one since the whole bottom floor has a complete open floor plan.

    So yes , two zone, two t-stat is what he wants

    Also Using Wilo-star variable speed circs (star s 21 f)

    Any other input? Thanks Again.
    Wish they had classes where I live (Long Island,NY) so I can learn more about all the new system design. I'm a plumber in local union in NYC and the boilers we deal with are the size of a house!
  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    edited September 2014
    Why have all of those actuators on the radiant for only one zone. Just costs more money and time to install, for nothing, and one more thing that can go wrong later. Too bad.

    Does the boiler have multiple thermostat inputs? The Lochinvar Knight has 3 sets of thermostat inputs. You can run 3 different outdoor reset curves one for each, if you have different heat emitters. The radiant and fin baseboard heat can run at different temps off the boiler. The boiler will default to the higher temp curve if two are going at the same time.

    To do that you would need to keep the end switch separate and not have the radiant and fin on the same multi box.

    Other than that...... yes what you want to do should work. You will have to jump the tstat inputs together so the 5- radiant actuators will all pull in when the thermostat closes, and keep the fin on zone 6 with it's own pump.

    I see no reason for it not to work.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,807
    You friend has well over $1,000 in controls that serve no purpose. These parts will eventually go bad and need to be replaced by more parts that serve no purpose.
    You simply do not need zone valves and zone circs. The way you are piped, as soon as the circs turn off, the flow will stop and that is what you are trying to do,right? My guess is that the engineer wishes he was hired by NASA and is trying to build redundancy into a residential heating system. Putting 3 times the required hardware will add up to 3 times the service calls. Keep it simple.

    The solution you describe will not work because there is no way to control the circs independently.

    All you really need is a SR502-4. That's it. You could use the 506 you have.

    If he really wants the thing to look fancy, just install the actuators but don't tighten them(that way they never close). Then put power to all the relays and jumper a few of the terminals so about half the lights come on. The system will look real nice. The good part about this approach is that when the actuators go bad you won't have to replace them because they weren't doing anything to begin with. You will look like a star because you did a super clean install with lot's of flashing lights and no parts left over.
    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • defftoad74
    defftoad74 Member Posts: 5
    Yes when I saw how the system was designed, I was amazed and knew it was over kill. I told him that half the crap he got is not needed.
    So just leave the actuators in the manual open position and have him buy the relay panel, keep the zone valve open at all times or remove if ( he wanted it installed and just have the two circulators run the two zones....
    That's what I would have don't or use zone valves but when it was designed the engineer went way overboard and made it way to complicated for an early 19 century horse stable that's converted into a two bedroom apt. Going to suck when I tell him the bad news that he basically for ripped off. Probably could sell the relay panels on eBay atleast.
    Thanks again
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,736
    As far as the extra zone panels go, the guy who split with the dough ray me most likely added them to this job so he could use them on another. The existing wire and piping diagram seems simple enough. Just follow it, if you start changing things it will end up on you if it fails to work properly.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    No Primary / Secondary?
  • defftoad74
    defftoad74 Member Posts: 5
    yes i think my friend got screwed, told him to sell all the panels and zone valves on ebay since all the material was purchased in 2011 and wont be able to return it.... messed up thing is that his good friend owns a supply house out in the hamptons and had that engineer design the system, but when he received the sketch, which is straight forward except the zone valve and circulator on the same zone. engineer had no wiring diagrams....like i said i was confused when i saw all the material... Im not an expert on boilers but have done many simple setups with zone valves and circulators, not to many with radiant heat. Just wish they had seminars out by me
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    Paul, Why use primary / secondary on this equipment ? Not necessary . He's already got too much stuff in here .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Zman
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,807
    The boiler already has a heat exchanger and a variable circ.
    Hydronic separation is already taken care of. No primary/secondary is needed.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Not suggesting....Just asking....Thanks
  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    edited September 2014
    Zman said:

    You friend has well over $1,000 in controls that serve no purpose. These parts will eventually go bad and need to be replaced by more parts that serve no purpose.
    You simply do not need zone valves and zone circs. The way you are piped, as soon as the circs turn off, the flow will stop and that is what you are trying to do,right? My guess is that the engineer wishes he was hired by NASA and is trying to build redundancy into a residential heating system. Putting 3 times the required hardware will add up to 3 times the service calls. Keep it simple.

    The solution you describe will not work because there is no way to control the circs independently.

    All you really need is a SR502-4. That's it. You could use the 506 you have.

    If he really wants the thing to look fancy, just install the actuators but don't tighten them(that way they never close). Then put power to all the relays and jumper a few of the terminals so about half the lights come on. The system will look real nice. The good part about this approach is that when the actuators go bad you won't have to replace them because they weren't doing anything to begin with. You will look like a star because you did a super clean install with lot's of flashing lights and no parts left over.
    Carl

    Actually with a ZVC box it can control two pumps one that will operate just for the priority zone, the other will operate the remaining zones.

    http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-092.pdf

    There is a "Zone 6 Relay" with 3-terminals. N/O, COM, and N/C

    120-volt power goes to the "com"terminal. it will power both pumps.

    N/O is wired to the priority zone pump. (will close when zone 6 calls)

    N/C is wired to either one of the extra end switch terminals. (it is normally closed until zone 6 calls, then it opens) 120-volts will be at one of the extra end switch terminal anytime zone 6 is not on.

    The system pump is powered off the other extra end switch terminal. (the extra end switch closes when any zone calls. It will open when the priority zone calls.

    With this set up, your radiant will not be able to run if the priority zone is on.

    I do agree though, I would ditch the actuators and make it a simpler two zone. They must have planned on breaking up the radiant into multiple zones in the beginning.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,807
    Thanks Eric,
    Good to know...
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    edited September 2014
    The Versa Hydro does not require 2 pumps , it is built into the unit . It will operate as DHW Priority . Why do engineers spec equipment that they don't fully understand . They just continue to throw more and more controls and mechanical things at everything . The only control you need is for the zone valves , you only need ZVC controller. THE VERSA HYDRO only requires space heating pump , and I suggest you let the Versa power that pump . Use the end switch from your zone valve controls like a thermostat wire to signal the Versa that there is a call for space heating , it will power the pump . You do not need an indirect pump nor do you have to concern yourself with priority . It is a water heater ! I know this equipment : http://mechanical-hub.com/langans .

    See page 44 of the manual , There is nothing confusing about this . Just like we "DO THE MATH " , "READ THE MANUAL " .
    http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-314.pdf
    Tell your homeowner that the engineer did one smart thing , he spec'd the VERSA . You are not responsible for this situation but instead are responsible to make it work right , it is not complicated .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    How are you controlling the two separate temps required? Do you have two or three zones? I thought you mentioned earlier that the bathroom was it's own zone.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    Just read the original post again . How many thermostats are there for radiant ? What is the radiant floor SWT temp , baseboard SWT temp ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • defftoad74
    defftoad74 Member Posts: 5
    Two zones. One for bb and one for radient. So wiring the relay by jumping the 5 actuators will work? And use zone 6 for the bb. I understand if zone 6 is set to priority that the radient won't turn on but what if I turn off the priority switch to the off position. And Wire the circulators as shown on tacos manual using a secondary pump. From what I was told the circ pump in the boiler if for circulating the water internally and is prewired on the circuit board. The circuit board only has one TT terminals. another for a circ pump, and terminals if using solar panels.

    So should I wire it this way or just buy the two circ zone relay and leave the actuators on the manual open position. Just to save the guy another 100 bucks. Told him to sell the the other two 6 zone relays.

    Or should I use one relay for the radient and one for the bb and connect both or them as shown on diagrams.

    Thanks for all the info
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,807
    edited October 2014
    You need a separate pump for mixing and one for the other zone. What you do not need are zone valves. At all...
    Sometimes you need to look past the mess in front of you and decide how you would do it if you were not handed a box of random parts.If each zone requires a circulator, and they both have check valves, what purpose do the zone valves serve?
    Remove the zone valves or at least the actuators from the system . Wire the zone pumps as zone pumps with a relay and call it good.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    edited October 2014
    Your friends' situation is unfortunate for sure but let's cut through the chase . Your friend called you because he needs your help . Then help him , tell him to sit down , shut up and let you make this thing work properly .
    Come back after this discussion has taken place and we'll help .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833