Going around obsticals

ChrisJ

I'm considering doing something smiliar to the attached diagram to get better pitch on a runout to one of my radiators.



The current straight pipe is pushed against a pvc pipe going to a toilet. I barely have enough pitch on the pipe to prevent hammering but right now it's been quiet. If it drops even a 1/16th it'll hammer on startup.



I'm assuming if I do something like this it's fine even if I have 45's or something to keep the steam pipe off to the side rather than directly above the bottom trap / drain as long as the bottom run is always completely filled and the top section empty?

icesailor

Obsticals:

Have you considered shimming up the radiator from the floor to solve the pitch problems? What you  have drawn should pound like a bad hangover.

ChrisJ

Shimming

icesailor.



As I said previously,



The current straight pipe is pushed against a pvc pipe going to a toilet. Instead of shimming the radiator I would just install a shorter nipple connecting it if need be. It's not possible.



it is also not possible to move the pvc pipe for the toilet.



I'm curious, why would it pound?

Fred

I don't think that will work

It would seem to me that the bottom half of that loop would always be full of condensate and steam is going to try and push through the top half but also probably push some water out of the bottom half and into the main run towards the radiator. Is there any way you could add a drip leg somewhere along that run and carry it back to a wet return? 

ChrisJ

Drip leg

I've considered a drip leg as well.



Unsure of what the smallest size I could safely use is though as I'd need to drill through a stone foundation to make it happen. I'm guessing 1/2" would be the smallest recommended?



The radiator is a small 15sqft unit.

jonny88

lost art

page 95 on lost art of steam heating I think shows what you have to do.Dan has a way of doing it without a drip.Check it out,I am sure you have the book

Fred

I'd suggest 3/4 inch

Page 95 of the lost art is for steam mains, most likely in a basement or crawl space where you have more room. I'm not sure if Chris's bathroom is on the first floor or a second floor (Where you don't have much room above the lower ceiling. In any case, if I were you Chris, if you go with a drip leg, I'd use 3/4 inch pipe to minimize it getting plugged up over time. I have a 3/4 inch and a 1" in my system and not had any issues with it and it is 100+ years old. The 1" leg is tapped right into the bottom of the run while the 3/4" leg is angled off to the side of the bottom of the run probably to minimize the risk of blockage.

Jamie Hall

For once in my life...

I think I have to disagree with Icesailor.  Much as I hate to, since he's forgotten more about this stuff than I've ever known.



But I don't think it will pound, and I do think it will work.  The key to it is that the pressure differential between the two sides of the arrangement is essentially nil, and thus there will be very little reason for condensate to be pushed out of the lower loop to where it would hammer.  To make doubly sure of this, though, I would make it so that the arrangement is not quite symmetrical.  Specifically, I would make the lead on the radiator side come off about half an inch higher than the line coming in from the other side.  This should help ensure that condensate will not be able to move out of the low loop into the radiator side.

JStar

Obstacle

I agree with Jamie on this. Should work fine with his suggestions. That 1/2" measurement should be a minimum. I would even go one pipe-size higher. You're basically building one big pipe out of the top and bottom pipes.



I would install full size tees with plugs for future cleaning of the bottom section.

Steamhead

Jamie's right

that 1/2" difference is what makes this thing work. 

icesailor

Drawing:

I wasn't commenting on whether it would work or not, just asking if you can raise up the radiator enough to get it to pitch. There's no floor shown.



As far as the piping, if it is one pipe steam, the part going under the closet waste will be full of water, always. The part going over, will be full of air or steam. If the pipe size is big enough, and the steam going to the radiator and not pound when it hits the water, it could be a fine thing.

Before you get too far, you should play "Fun With Fittings" and make it up like you want to make it go around the waste pipe. You might not have room to do what you want. You'll need unions to get it together unless you use copper tube. Which might make it work.

Hap_Hazzard

At least one union

and the lengths of the nipples will have to be just right.

ChrisJ

Thank you

Thank you for all of the replies.



It's sounding like a drip leg will not only be easier, but may be necessary due to limited amount of space. As Fred said I have almost no room to work with.



My question about a drip leg is because it's primarily below the water line can I use copper? I'm sure there will be many opinions on this and I'd like to hear all of them.

Fred

Maybe

You might be able to get away with copper but I'd be inclined to use black iron pipe. I know my drip legs get as hot as the actual steam pipe for a few feet and cools down as it get closer to the water line. Constant expansion and contraction at the steam run end would be my only concern.

ChrisJ

Pictures

Here are some pictures of the runout in question. The older "before" picture is from when we bought the house the pipe had a hole in it. I'm guessing someone drilled the hole to allow condensate to drain. There is another runout behind this one that the joists are slightly notched to allow greater pitch. Not concerned with this one as it works beautiful and the joists are so short the notching doesn't matter.



The problem runout on the other hand. As you see there is a soil pipe from the toilet in the way so even if I wanted to notch the joists it wouldn't work.

So far it's been ok but if I reduce the pitch even a hair, it will hammer on startup.



To me, that suggests it must not be quite up to par. It's obviously far better than it was when we bought the place but I think there is still room for improvement.

Jamie Hall

You've got to love

old houses.  There is always something new and different to play with...  That soil pipe is nothing if not ingenious.



Honestly, if the radiator is heating and isn't hammering, I think I'd leave it alone. But -- I tend to operate on the principle of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" which drives some of the folks I work with who like to have things just so slightly nuts.



You asked a couple of posts ago about copper.  On a wet return -- which  is what your drip leg would amount to, assuming you snaked it on around back to the boiler -- you can quite safely use copper below the water line of the boiler.  No problem at all.  Above the water line is not so good.  The problem is the expansion of the copper when it gets hot, of course.  Not that it absolutely cannot be used; it can, but one must make sure that somehow the copper is allowed to expand without putting stress on the soldered joints, especially stress tending to twist them.  (Before someone has a heart attack, copper in a boiler header is an absolute no no, particularly if there are two or more risers -- it will tear the boiler apart).  This may require considerable ingenuity.  So it is better to use threaded black iron above the water line.  It's easier...

Dave in QCA

A Different Approach

Chris,

Have you considered rearranging the run out in a different way that would allow for improved pitch?  As you look at your second picture, you could cut the runnout about 2 joists to the left of the soil pipe, then 45 toward the camera just far enough so that when you 45 back to the original bearing that you now pass under the sewer pipe at a point where it is up between the joists and does not create an obstruction.  Then, as you get to the distance of the radiator drop, 90 back to the radiator.  If you wanted to get fancy, you could install the 90 with the outlet point up 45 then straighten out with a 45 el and on over to the radiator.  This last detail would be just to take advantage of slope and improve condensate flow.

Just another thought that might be a whole lot easier.

JStar

Another option

I would consider this a more annoying option, but you could route the run-out through the joists above the waste line. Would involved a lot of little pieces of pipe and couplings, though.

ChrisJ

Ideas

Thank you all for responding.



Dave, I've been looking into that and have a feeling it would make things worse. Towards the camera is towards what has settled which is why the pitch is wrong in the first place. This section settled, a lot over the past 100 years.





Jstar,

Interesting idea and this is where having my own threader would really come in handy. I could cut the runout off, thread it and screw a 45 on it and go from there.



I'm curious how to handle the pipe making noise where it passes through the joists? Plastic milk carton shims?

Fred

what about the waste pipe?

Hey Chris, It looks like the waste pipe from the toilet ties into the main waste that has a clean-out on the end of it. It all looks like PVC. What about cutting that PVC back 3 or 4 feet before the steam pipe and using a 45 drop down below the steam pipe, with an extension of pipe then use another 45 and shoot straight into the main waste with a short section of pipe? It looks like you could still get good pitch on the waste pipe and also get the room you need to improve the pitch on the steam pipe.

ChrisJ

Waste pipe

Hi Fred,



I was wondering the same thing, but when Jamie said it was ingenious it made me think maybe I shouldn't touch it?



That's not the main pipe, but it ties into the main pipe on the other side of the stone foundation.

Fred

Best Bet

I don't see anything magical about the current configuration. I think cutting the waste pipe back and going under the steam pipe is going to be the best solution all the way around and it keeps you from having to hack up your floor joist.

Dave in QCA

Old houses and gravity

Chris,  I didn't realize the corner had settled so you are right to avoid that.  I agree with other's suggestions about rerouting your sewer pipe or proceeding with your original plan.  If you want to check out an actual "dead man" instructions and diagrams of "piping around and obstruction", you will find one or more drawings in the various Dunham Handbooks that are in the Library here in Heating Help.

Hap_Hazzard

Threaders

You can pick up hand threaders cheap. They're not good, but adequate for DIYers. The tough part is holding the pipe. You'll need a chain vise and a heavy workbench to fasten it to.



Also, you need light threading oil for hand threaders. The "home improvement" stores will try to sell you dark, which is great for threading machines, but too thin for hand cutting. I've only been able to find it in aerosol, which is less than ideal, but it gets the job done.

RobG

Agree

The waste line would probably take an hour or so to re-route. Looks like the easiest and cheapest alternative to me. Sawzawl, a few feet of pipe, some forty fives, a new wye, a male adaptor with plug and a coupling or two.  



Rob

ChrisJ

Sawzall

I'm really starting to love my Sawzall.

For the longest time I kept putting off using one and then I finally bought one.

Hap_Hazzard

Accessorize

Next time you're in Lowes, look for the Kobalt reciprocating saw accessory set. It comes with a couple of adapters that attach where a blade normally goes and accept anything with a 1/4" hex shank, like you'd use on a drill/driver, and a scraper, a couple of wire brushes and a file. They're all pretty useful, but I especially like the file. It's not just that it does the work for you, but it gives perfectly straight file strokes, which is very hard to do by hand.

KC_Jones

recip saw and more

Next to this bad boy http://www.feinus.com/en_us/multimaster/  The reciprocating saw is one of my favorite tools....especially for demo work!