Need help on a complete system overhaul!!

wolverines

I've been reading myself into circles so I'm hoping you all can help me. I have a super old home that was once a 2 family and the heating system is quite frankly a total mess. The system is hot water radiators, a 9 year old Munchkin 199M boiler with 5 zones, an Amtrol expansion tank and separate hot water heater. House with all 3 floors is 4500 sq. ft. (+basement). The zones are terrible, spanning 3 floors with one room above the next.



Since we are redoing/updating a ton of the house and many of the walls are wide open now is the chance to update the system, hide the big pipes and swap out some of the big radiators for some cast iron baseboard. Several of the radiators need to be moved to more appropriate locations within the rooms.



I'm planning on running all new pex and removing the never ending sea of pipes and branches for a better layout, the question is what should that layout be? Do you run a main pex supply and return and branch off to each radiator in a zone like the current system is (albeit with the zone being on the same floor, not 3)? Or do you run a homerun supply and return from each radiator? Or is there a better option I'm not thinking of? I could really use some direction. I want to get cracking on this while the walls are open. Thanks in advance!!

JStar

Heat

All of those big radiators and pipes are keeping your system at the highest efficiency possible. Swapping all of that high-mass material with low-mass pex and baseboard my severely drop your system's total efficiency. AAre you deadset on removing all of those items?

Rich_49

Ideas

What others are you entertaining ?  What kind of boiler , hot water system ? If they are bad like getting rid of rads maybe we can show you why they may or may not be mistakes .  You should definitely KEEP the RADS .Even if someone where you are is telling you they are no good he is misinformed . As a matter of fact if you are thinking of a high efficiency wall hung they may be your best bet by far .

wolverines

keeping the radiators

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm keeping the vast majority of the existing radiators. I like hotwater heat and like cast iron better than slant fin style baseboard. In some of the new/updated rooms I'll either put in cast iron baseboard or put in a sunrad that can be recessed in the wall, generally something less intrusive. I'm open to what it might be.



What I was planning on doing is removing all of the existing pipes to those radiators and replacing the piping with pex. I don't want to have a zone that includes the kitchen, the bedroom above that and the bedroom above that (as it is now). And I also don't want those massive pipes running a foot off the wall in some of the rooms. So what I need help with is how do you run the new piping? What's the preferred method to do so? Just like it's run now where you run a main line and return for a zone and branch off that for each radiator (so the first floor would have 5 radiators, several lengths of CI baseboard). Thanks again for the help!

wolverines

2 options as I see them

So these are the 2 options as I see them - stick with the trunk and branch method that is currently piped or go to a series (in one end and out the other and on to the next radiator). I could really use some guidance so if I'm not describing this correctly please let me know. Either way I have to rezone as I can't imagine having a zone that spans 3 floors is the proper way to do it now. Thanks in advance for any advice!

wolverines

Looks like Forced Air is going to be the solution

Guys, thanks for trying to help out. As we've moved a littler further along in the project, and realizing what a complete mess of pipes and radiators we have (some of the zones span 3 floors, others are scattered around the house) and the cost to get that right and hide/minimize the footprint of the radiators, it's looking like the best solution is going to be upgrading the current a/c to forced hot air to take care of both heating and cooling.



Thanks again. Forced hot air here we come...

JStar

Heat

That is a HORRIBLE idea. I mean, really dreadful. You will never be happy with forced-error heating.



Where are you located? We may know somebody who can help.

psb75

Taking the bait

You just said"forced hot-air" because you really know how bad a choice that is, and that a whole lot of the Wallies will jump all-over that bad idea--and chime-in with plenty of good ideas. Right?

Drewser

Really?...

I've lived in houses with cast iron radiators and houses with forced air. In fact, one of the forced air heated homes we rented for several years was brand new, the best of the best in terms of install, heated, air conditioned, humidified, air-exchanged, blah blah blah. I will admit, the system worked VERY well, was very well-balanced, and so on.



Unfortunately, it also always felt cold in that house, despite the spray-foam insulation, insulated ductwork, thermal breaks, super duper windows, etc. Our energy costs were always high there, though we didn't realize how high until we bought our current house.



Our current house is 100 years old this summer, plaster/lath walls, poorly done and settled blown-in wall insulation, half the windows are original, and an uninsulated basement (and it gets COLD here in the winter, -20 to -30f is very common). We have a hot water heating system, radiators and pipes original to the house. It has been converted from gravity to pumped. And yes, all of our pipes are visible in the corners of the first floor rooms, which is right where I want them...they won't freeze and provide a bit of extra usable heat.



This house is 400 sq ft larger than the super-house we rented, with an additional floor. Our energy bills are 30-40% less than the forced-air house, we keep our thermostat 6-7 degrees lower on average, and, in general, just *feel* warmer all the time. The biggest decrease was on electrical usage (no blowers, fans, etc, just a pump). Gas usage also dropped significantly...and this is with a 30-yr old inefficient boiler. Can't wait to see the new numbers this winter with a new boiler.



For our family, the biggest change was not having dust, dirt, pollen, allergens, animal hair and dander, and odors blowing around. One filter in the return at the furnace is NOT going to take care of all that. Add in duct cleaning that doesn't help, and you have a system that can never really be cleaned of all that stuff.



Point being, it might cost more to set up correctly and get working the way you want it to, but once that is done, it is DONE and you won't be doing it again. Trust the folks here... there is a reason the rest of the world laughs at most of our heating systems. Farced-Air is a joke. Around here a home with hot-water heating (especially an original, well preserved, century-old system) commands a premium over the same house with forced-air.



Andy

wolverines

Options are limited

No flaming at all (not intentional). My wife hates the big rads and I promised to not have those big pipes outside the walls when I bought the house this past winter. So I need to hide everything as best as possible. My home is really a 2 family from 100+ years ago that has been converted to 1 family and we are finishing the conversion. So there is a sea of pipes that was never properly done creating zones that are a complete mess (like the 1 I found on 3 different floors). My ac units and boiler are all 10-15 years old, and I am on a budget. So for just a little bit more than the cost of adding the new rads and ac to the addition I can update all of the units and switch to forced hot air. I'm not 100% sold on either choice, or I wouldn't still be posting here. I grew up with cast iron baseboard (it was hot in the house throughout the winter) and our prior home had forced hot air (and it was quite comfortable, although I think we needed humidity added to the system in hindsight). So I've lived with both.



Joe - I left you a message. I'm in northern NJ and would be happy to talk through my options with you. I have one chance to do this right while the walls are open.



Thanks again to all for replying!

fixerDIYupper

I'm finishing up doing almost the same exact thing in upstate NY. 100+ year 2 family victorian. Longest suppy and return for one radiator, 40' for supply and 40' for return.

Hydronic base heating systems are the most efficient.
Big radiators = good (CI baseboards are good too if you want to switch).
Big pipes feeding and returning the radiators = bad (high water mass to heat).

My solution:
Uponor 10 Loop S&R TruFlow Manifold (floors 2 & 3, 2 zones)
Ditched the 1 1/4" steel pipes, replaced with Uponor 1/2" Multicor PAP, blanketed in R-30.
1" supply and return to manifold from boiler.

I've shortened the distance water travels in the house by over 50% = efficiency.
Next step is modcon boiler, circulator valve, and ODR.