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Getting into mod/con business

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Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    I do see the point that bc is making

    keep in mind a modern cast iron or copper tube boiler is much different from a 30 year old one, size and mass, ignition system, insulation, to name a few. A 100K cast iron is not that much larger than a mod con these days.



    What is the most expensive component to replace on a cast iron boiler? What the most common failure on a mod con? Price a inducer fan and motor, available only with the circuit board attached. A mother board $$?. These are the unknown, or known unknowns that can throw the numbers out of budget quickly.



    Not to go back too far, but standing pilot boilers ran troubleefree for decades, some without any maintenance over that life cycle.



    I know some contractors only install mid efficiency equipment in the very rural areas where parts availability is slim, and a service call round trip could ring up hundreds in fuel and windshield time, usually requiring two trips. Parts and multiple service calls could ring up a grand rather quickly.



    Keep in mind the elements out of our control, low gas pressure, ever changing fuel BTU content, obselete OEM parts, all realities. These are some of the common realities of 90% equipment. Ignore PVC venting for this discussion :)



    At the end it is what is best for the individual customer, and their expectations for on-going yearly maintenance.



    Many of us here embrace modcons, but we are able to service and repair our own stuff, the consumer doesn't always have that option.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    better

    I'm not a huge fan of a common water heater as a heat source. The small boiler would be my choice.





    We had this discussion many years ago at the RPA. Larry Drake the director always wondered why an "H" stamp is such a important feature. Why does a low temperature heat source need to be called a boiler even. Boilers is an old term dating back to steam days :)



    If the "heating appliance" can be built safely with all the appropriate LWC, over temperature, no flow, low pressure cut out, gas train safety, etc, why not. Most of these controls are standard on Euro origin mod cons, or the connection is provided for LWC switches for example. Most of the mod cons that came from off shore did not have the H stamp early on and proved to be equally as safe, or safer than H stamped products. The Euro boilers meet some fairly strict standards.



    Some of the tank style "boilers" on the market do not have the H stamp, and have adequate protection, like their mod con kin. Maybe it's an entire mod con assembly shoved into a tank? I think my tank style condensor has a vacuum cleaner motor for the inducer fan. Sure is robust.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Hot Rod

    I dont think anyone here would disagree with that direct statement. It does cost money to be green on all fronts,except for my schwinn world sport 10 speed from high school I still have, and do ride for leisure;-) But sooner or later it should, and will be a requirement, and this will all be a mute point in cost of ownership no?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Boiler temp

    Why would you not keep the boiler temp at 180 mix down for the emitters if 100 degrees is all you need BC? That would give a 40 delta for the indirect. I dont see the cost of maintaining a water heater tank temp at 140-150 all the time, and having to lose efficiency through an HX so its oversized to do the job.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    no doubt

    we will be forced to buy 90%. Old habits die hard, I'll miss those old cast iron "boat anchors" they served us well. Miss my 78 Ford 250 4X4 also.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited July 2014
    Deleted Threads

    Can anyone name what they have in common ?  Whoever comes up with the correct answer first will receive a beautiful blue Langans Plumbing and Heating shirt . This hirt is made of 100% cotton and sports the motto " Considerate People , Considerate Service , Consider it Done " . Unlike some folks we spared no expense in this purchase for the comfort of our men .  I will determine the winner by the time stamps of the answers and contact the winner for their preferred method of delivery . Thanks for participating . Contest ends at 7:00 A.M July 10 2014
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    DHW with a plate HX

    at my house and shop I generate DHW with 5X12 30 plate HX. The shop runs off a large solar tank, 180 gallons. I get a hot shower with the tank as low as 130°F via the plate. Size to a 10° approach on the HX. So at 130° on the "a" side I still see 120° on domestic side.



    A Harwill flow switch triggers an Alpha to run the "A" side. DHW up to about 2.5 gpm heats instantly. That Buderus could do that use a 3 way thermostatic to protect from cold return temperatures.



    In the winter my 120 Lochinvar Cadet produces DHW with an even smaller plate HX inside, but it does run up to 180°F.



    Summer months at the house DHW from a 30 plate HX on a 50 gallon Thermocon buffer. But it does get a solar pre-heat from another solar drainback system.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Buderus

    Did you mean GC124/3 BC ?  Just for accuracy .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited July 2014
    deleted

    No shirt required.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    Water Heaters

    I have a long winded explanation of the phenomena that can occur when using a conventional gas water heater as a boiler. Problem is, I am quite to lazy too type it all right now;-)

    I will say this much. If you have a heat load that comes close, or matches the btu output of the burner accompanied by a system with some mass, that poor water heater doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. It has to do with the way the heat exchanger is built and the location of the burner. Upon start up, the flue gasses are condensing at the top of the hx running down the tube to the bottom, evaporating again because the burner is directly underneath. More air is drawn in, introducing more water vapor. You get my drift. Burning water isn't cheap! I witnessed a water heater burning continuously for two weeks without getting the water temp above 75°F.



    Yes I installed it.

    Couple of reasons.

    I had to prove a cabbage head and all his relatives wrong. They knew it would work and I knew it wouldn't. They were so insistent and persistent that I figured well, I might as well get paid twice. And I did. 2 weeks after it was in I get a phone call. A whimpering voice at the other end of the line said that they are ready to listen and I should do what ever is best.

    So I did. Haven't heard a complaint since.



    The other reason was scientific curiosity. I got to watch the melee unfold before my eyes. I found it quite interesting to say the least.



    Harvey   
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited July 2014
    Denigrating Path

    Not particularly BC , I simply decided to refrain from being sucked into the vortex of a debate about unrelated nonsense on a thread someone asked a specific question .

    As far as my return with an affordable solution I offer the following . I learned a long time ago that every job is different and requires a different approach and different equipment specific to that job . With the knowledge we now possess many of us know that depending on circumstances beyond our control both types of technology may gain benefit from mass due to zoning , changing heat load requirements , etc . There are also many of us whom regularly add components to systems that in our opinion are required and this is probably a good thing as we are professionals .  On many jobs that are retrofit where extensive work can not be done at that time because of many reasons but will or will not be in the future I sometimes turn to this product because it has built in air elimination , dirt separator , mass , modulating burner , condensing technology , superior materials and requires about the same maintenance as a cast iron boiler . When I do the math and include all the components and labor involved with them which I would include anyway this unit actually usually costs less to the consumer .



    http://www.htproducts.com/pioneer.html



    Have a nice day and no you don't get the shirt . I will send you one though just for making me laugh . Send me your info in a PM so I can ship it .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    priority

    if the concern is being able to generate DHW on a design heating day, you could priortize the DHW. That is how the mod cons with onboard plate HX operate. Usually stopping a pump or diverting a 3 way zone valve is how they do it. Additionally some have an adjustable time out so the boiler cannot ignore the heat call.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Making a bang/bang boiler behave well

    is entirely do-able, as is heating a house with a tankless water heater.  My experience is that the added cost of doing so exceeds the cost differential of a mod/con boiler.  We still do a fair bit of this -- fixing bad installs, but I have yet to find a case where it pencils out on a new install unless there is solar or biomass or some other uncontrolled heat source in the system.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited July 2014
    Why yes

    they can and do recognize what is calling .  Most even power the circulator for the DHW as well as central heating circulator .  Sensor (10 -12k) usually sends signal to boiler , boiler adjusts SWT accordingly until demand is gone or programmed max time is reached than will return to space heating temp requirements based on ODR or some other programmed temp .  All this debate about mod/cons and you were not aware of these capabilities ? 
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Price

    Obviously you are shopping for price. What people are saying is that once you start adding all of the components together, you will end up with a Frankenstein of a system that costs more to assemble than a Navian CH-180 that is actually designed to do domestic and space heating, carries the H stamp, has built in controls for outdoor air reset and DHW priority and will take up less space, satisfy your homeowners insurance requirments and be easier to install. Oh and don't forget the AFUE is higher than your water heater. 
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Question for BC

    Is your home hot water heated or steam heated at present  ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Performing 2 tasks

    sounds daunting ?  It's kinda like walking and chewing gum , gets even easier when you're not expected to do both at once .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Right

    Once again BC, you are right. Nobody has ever thought about using a water heater as a heat source before. You should patent your idea! You will show us! You will have the last laugh! Dr. Frankenstein would be proud.



    Humbly,

    Rob
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 440
    The Customers

    just want to spend less for heat and hot water. Some don't worry about the ride just as long as they arrive at the destination (Mercedes or Prius). As far as fuel change it's a no brainer, if available. We have had customers save 50% in dollars from gas to mod con, it's not an illusion..........really.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Because

    It is less than professional, and people are going to lurk, and see that someone is doing it so that makes it okay especially if a professional condones it. Its one thing to experiment when you know what you are doing, and another when you do not know what your doing. I'm not insinuating you.





    Another in my opinion is you want to debate cost of ownership from conventional to mod/con without the full understanding of the technology. Disregarding everything that comes in the box of one verse the other. That's worth loads to the installer, and the consumer in the end. Your using a water heater a step below conventional even, and also purchasing loads of extra parts to make it do what you want when in fact the seemingly more expensive option comes with all the parts all ready assembled into a neat plug and play package. You get what you pay for. The water heater will never approach the efficiency of a conventional boiler. Now you could do what Rich does, and use the HTP product Pioneer which has the technology built into the over all purchase.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Rich

    mentioned the Pioneer as a comparison to a conventional cast iron boiler in this thread and as a comparison of same the 55 gallons of mass allow the Pioneer to be held out for a longer period between cycles .  My comparison as far as the system you will install in your house was the Versa Flame which is an identical plug and play package developed by professional engineers to do exactly what you want in your home . Many guys still have the need to build a wall full of pumps and controls and valves and all sorts of **** that is unnecessary when they could order a package that has it all and is less complicated but they deem too expensive . What you are firgetting is the basic rule of business , time is money , at least mine is . You and others can build all the crazy trash you want at the end of the year I will spend hardly any time on service and will have completed 4 more complete projects than my peers . Please be accurate BC , I will engage in constructive discussion forever , anyone here can attest to that but I have no time for nonsensical garbage . By the way , what you are about to embark on was tried and failed long ago, this is the reason equipment like HTP has developed was developed . The difference between your GPVX and ANY boiler is this , the boiler was built to run 24/7 for 5-7 months a year , under those conditions your GPVX will end it's first season seeing as much use as it would just being a water heater for 6 years . Have fun getting warranty service from AO  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    edited July 2014
    Actually

    Actually, your GPVX was designed to replace the woefully poor Apollo water heater design. They were used in cheap condos and small houses to operate with an air handler. I have replaced a ton of them. They are not made to last, they are made to satisfy the warranty period. Period! If you were to post the costs of all the parts and pieces of the scabbed together system, I can assure you that a Navian CH-180 will be less expensive or at least even. The biggest cost savings is in the labor needed for installation. I am just using the Navian as the least expensive combi that I know of as an example, for a few dollars more you can improve from there. Are you doing the installation yourself?



    As to the "critical error" you told me I had made in a previous post, the water heater WILL scale up quickly due to the fact that it will be running MUCH more WITHOUT make up water, the dip tube in a water heater flushes the bottom (a bit) as you use hot water. The scale will bake on the bottom of the tank, not to mention the flue gas condensation eroding it from within. I just find it hard to believe that a mechanical engineer would do this. (actually, now that I think about it, I'm not surprised)



    As well, you are not doing the same thing as Hot Rod is, you are doing the complete opposite. His boiler is a closed loop and his domestic goes through the flat plate. If he did it in the manor you are the heat exchanger would foul up quicker than you could whistle Dixie.



    Rob
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Dude

    Dude, you really need to chill out. I am just stating my opinion. You can do what you want to do but you cannot choose the consequences (someone on here uses something like that as there tag line). All that I am saying is that what you are trying to do has been done before, it even makes sense in some applications. I personally don't think that it fits your scenario. But opinions are like you know what. Do what you want.



    Rob
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,561
    Agree to disagree

    BC,

    None of this is a personal attack. Different people have different opinions. Everyone is wired differently and not everyone will come to the same conclusion when presented with the same facts. That's life...

    It would be more productive to have a heated debate over what brand of truck you should drive.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    good and relevant questions

    I believe the questions and points discusses are in fact on the minds of our customers, home and building owners.



    There are so many way to heat hydronically, it's good to have choices. If the products are approved and listed to heat water, and installed in a code like fashion, they should be considered.



    Pretty much every water heater manufacturer now has a boiler offering, and some have heat pump, solar and solid fueled offerings.



    Oddly, doesn't Canada still approved combined DHW/ radiant with water heaters? .
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    there have been products, over the years

    built to do exactly what you have in mind. One of the finest was designed and built by Robert Bean up Canada way. He designed a line of beautiful and functionally acurate ZCP. Zone Control Panels. One version was built to add onto a water heater to add a small, or large, it the tank could provide it, radiant zone. inside a nice powder coated box was the FPHX, pump, electronics, mix valve, balance device, all the correct components. I put a few in, 12 years ago or more, I'll bet they are still running. Possibly the WH they were connected to :)



    I think Danfoss bought the company, Wirsbo sold them for a time, maybe Robert and some partners bought it back from Danfoss, been a while.



    He was on the right path, contractors balked at the cost and that it took some of their skill set out of the installations.



    I believe AO Smith offered a module for some time also.



    Bradford White tried to jam the HX inside with the CombiCor, great idea, bad choice for the coated aluminum HX. The ones that did last 10 years, considering the @ $900 cost, probably penciled out nicely for the customers. Bradford White did, by the way, stand behind every one that failed with replacements, or two separate WH option. Good for them.





    You are correct in the big "unknown" being yearly and ongoing maintenance and repairs for the higher tech. Keeping in mind some contractors are in excess of $200.00 / hr. for that service work.



    On the plus side the new mod cons seem to have many, most, of the early glitches worked out.



    Early inducer motors and fans the flew apart- gone. Ignitors that were un-dependable- gone. leaking HX and connections- gone. Parts availability and knowledgable tech support, mostly gone.



    In all these examples it's playing the odds. Will it break, when will it break, is it repairable, what are the repair costs, will the manufacturer be around in 10 years, on and on.



    High efficiency is here to stay, pick your partner, stay current on product, maintenance, design, upcoming technology, and do right by your customer.



    My 1978 Ford 250 was never in the shop in it's entire career. My last Ford "highly engineered" 6.0 diesel left me stranded 3 times before it had 20K, a couple weeks of lost revenue, sold at a loss with 60K. Go figure those odds :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,561
    Why?

    BC,

    Why do you insist on turning every post into a defense of your purchase of a boiler or water heater or whatever it is?



    The Brookfield study accurately represents the efficiency difference between mod/ cons and CI boilers using baseboard heat, not he best application for mod cons.



    I think it is great that you are happy with your purchase.i personally would not use it for that application. Others on this forum agree.



    Can you please let it rest?



    Come back in 20 years and tell everyone how reliable it has been and how wrong we were.



    This post had nothing to do with you or your water heater, nor does your banter add anything to the discussion.



    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited July 2014
    Crapshoot

    Bc .  There are so many things to consider when debating this subject .

    1 Is the boiler to be placed in a new home or retrofit ? Many of the homes I enter to replace a boiler have way too much baseboard , this allows me to determine by way of heat loss calc what the max temp required is and with ODR we can make  mod cons sing and have regularly experienced greater than 35% savings for space heating only , the number grows when we can install DHW also .

     Many of these same houses this is not possible and I can only speak for myself when I say I replace those like for like (but smaller most times)

      Then you will get the house that has undergone extensive envelope improvements and has an point 3 ACH NAT performance . You can't really introduce cold air into the space for combustion and increase the heat loss of the structure. You don't want to size the DOAS system for that , if there is one , many times that was not done in favor of exhaust only which would compound the combustion air problem .Now these poor homeowners have a real problem they are gonna die without the mod con .  I don't believe you appreciate the balancing act many of us are doing out here to DO THE RIGHT THING , save people money every month , make them comfortable and be able to sleep at night .

      The world we are working in is challenging . Competition is offering garbage and putting people at risk and in jeopardy . They install stuff that does not work , they don't do heat loss calcs , they don't know what head , Delta T , OAT , ECM , reverse return , P&S . It's terrible and the attorneys are just sitting in their office heated by mod cons waiting for the phone to ring . Hell , we even have utility companies administering incentive and rebate programs that make you use a mod con in a house where it does not belong and then slap a direct vent , PVC exhausted water heater right next to it because you cannot have an orphaned chimney without enough BTUs to heat it up . These jobs are where most of your horror stories come from . I see boilers all the time where the homeowners would like them ripped out and the only problem is the installer . I have mod cons out here that have run trouble free since 1995 and I have mod cond that the folks do not want service for whatever reason that become a problem .

      I also have replaced more cast iron boilers installed by some knucklehead that thought just run them at 130 for radiant and return em at 110 , they'll be fine .

     New houses are a completely different story . The guys that you have been exchanging with likely as I would rather be part of a design team during conception and build a house to suit what the occupant wants as opposed to designing a heating system to an architects attempt at an award for a giant turd he can publish and toot his own horn about to the world . This is the way it is starting to be done now .  Please take a look at the attachments , this is a house we are about to break ground on , I have given the details at 5* w/ 20 mph wind and 28* w/ 20 mph wind . Piping is designed to have minimal head loss , all panels will operate at 10* DT and the boilers will condense 100% of the time .  This house will consume no more than 2255 therms annually . NJNG budget amount for this house will run right about 210.00 per month . This is what most of us here do , maybe this will explain where we speak from .  A lot of time was spent this winter helping folks tell their contractors what they did wrong so they could fix it , Maybe you could help us in the future .

     By the way , I have seen what you are ready to embark on . Be very gingerly putting that in place . I have seen 3 units set up like yours where the glass separated or chipped and the manganese levels were terribly dangerous .

      
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,561
    Pointless

    You seem to recognize the futility of the truck argument. Yet you hold onto this one.

    How about getting together for a few hours of TIC TAC TOE?



    I am just pointing out that you have a habit of hijacking threads in order to validate your selection of heating systems.



    Start your own thread and start your own argument (again) I will gladly ignore it
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Oakley White paper

    What to take from it was its intent.



    1.Oversized emitters a plus.

    2. Mod/cons condense with high temp emitters IF number one applies.

    3.Mod/cons are more efficient than conventional equipment.



    What you chose to take from it is your intent. For you that is cost of ownership vs efficiency.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    The PDFs were posted

    in response to a post referencing a dwelling with existing high temp baseboard.  The intent was to show that even an inferior emitter system (high temp baseboard) can benefit from a mod/con boiler.



    The initial introduction of modulating condensing boilers into the American market was a bit bumpy.  Most of us who have been at this long enough have seen our share of bad installs.  The products and the installers have both come a long way in the past two decades.  I have no qualms about selling and warrantying them, nor should any competent and conscientious tradesman or contractor.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Manganese

    You'll know if it is an issue by the color / tint of the water leaving your faucets .  A simple test from a sample at the incoming water and one from the drain at the bottom of the heater will tell you if it is elevated .  I had a customer whose home had city water that was fine at incoming in every way but with readings if I remember correctly around 450 ppm after the tank . Manufacturer tried to state that water was too soft , it was in fact point 007 low . A nice letter from the attorney finally convinced them to warranty and replace the tank .    
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited July 2014
    Customer Attitude

    I always find myself walking away from jobs because I won't install what some idiot told them would work . Hell , I can sit on my couch with my hand in my pants watching television and not lose money and worry about being sued . That approach has zero overhead .  I have counseled too many attorneys at this point on what was done wrong and 100% provable to even entertain the thought of doing it wrong . I educate my potential customers and let them make their decision . I also offer to design the systems for them so bidding contractors can bid apples to apples while at the same time including my bid in the form of a budget for the system , many times they figure out they cannot really afford radiant or whatever it is they are seeking . Then you have the guy that watches DIY TV , you go to his house , measure , design , provide price and he tells you he saw on DIY where it can be done for 10.00 per sq ft . You point out to him that he is missing one very important point , you're not doing it yourself ,I am doing it for you . Fact is that almost all consumers will pay 500.00 for a 5.00 job but piss and moan about spending 5.00 on a 500.00 job . Imagine that  They will buy the newest I phone every 7 months but will skimp and be cheap on the equipment in their largest investment , their home .  

      Everything we use today damn near requires maintenance . Fact is with proper equipment selection , design and installation a whole lot of maintenance is not required . https://www.linkedin.com/groups/Replacing-old-boiler-new-more-3753681.S.5808595544783736834?qid=631a6a3c-750c-4070-8d9f-66bee0c95411&trk=groups_items_see_more-0-b-ttl

      So I see now what you do . Let me ask you this . If some other engineer that was not in your exact field came and told you he had a better way than you and you had already seen people attempt that unsuccessfully or in a manner that the longevity sucked what would your response be ?  I am guessing you would be frustrated with that discussion . Well , at least you're experimenting in your own plane and not someone else's .  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    good, and healthy

    to discuss and understand differences in opinions and opposing views. Our elected leaders should embrace that concept, again.



    Numbers are what we have to base pretty much everything on, temperature, money, projections, guesstimates, etc. Sure they can be tweaked to one advantage, the banking industry is good at that.



    In this discussion, time is the largest unknown. How much, for how long. Even with the best number crunching and accelerated testing, sometimes it's just a guess based on the data available.



    Also forces beyond our control, dirty power, changing fuel content, intake air building mouse turds, etc.



    Hats off to Pete for making that study possible and being one of the early condensing proponents.



    Keep in mind the MZ is no longer available, parts pretty much gone. So customers that installed them with that 15 year- 20 year formula, may not make out so well.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Monitor MZ

    Funny you should mention the MZ Bob .  We are doing a job now for a woman whose husband is employed by the gas utility . He , in his infinite wisdom retrofitted his former home with radiant , some embedded some sandwich . Non barrier tubing , electric stripped out water heater for a buffer laying horizontal , 20+ circs (B&G NRF22s) , no water treatment for heating system with well water system .  Female homeowner has house after divorce , pays monthly maintenance / repair contract , heat goes out in January , tech cannot figure out what is wrong , bypasses safeties & flue safety after being instructed to do so by office , states this is against his better judgement on written paperwork . House almost burns down , everything in house freezes , house destroyed essentially . Insurance company is ecstatic , they have the best case one could hope for , written negligence by an employee .  We spent 5 complete days flushing lines to my satisfaction ( Caleffi flush/fill) . Found so many problems with house other than what is obvious .  After dissecting Monitor I found the trap completely filled with lime scale .  Just an example of the so many things that can go wrong .

      Anyone who thinks your gas supplier is an authority on anything , think again . 
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Original post, and drifting from a direct answer.

    I usually do embrace drifting off topic in a debate. If the poster is patient, and reads the posts something can be taken away from the discussion....usually.



    In this particular case it should bring to light there is no simple direct answer to his question. It's a case by case, wants, needs, goals, budgets for both installer, and end user.



    It's like debating which mod/con, or conventional boiler is better. Usually in the end it's about what is available in the area, parts, knowing the product line, features offered, and features really needed.



    Savings from a new install is always subjective especially if calculated by end user. So long as the customer is happy with those numbers is what really counts.



    In the end choosing not to offer a product line limits his business opportunities.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Most Folks

    have no clue about all the thought we dedicate to every single job Gordy . I think they miss the point that those hours which they never see are money well spent .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833