Personal CO Monitor is a must

Jeff W_2

Just bought the CO Angel personal CO monitor. I wear it almost all the time now. Walked into an estimate call and the unit alarmed at about 40-45ppm immediately. I asked the owner if he knew he had a CO problem and he said yes. Turns out he was shut down by utility 1 YEAR AGO and a 'contractor' came in, ripped apart the boiler and 'couldn't find anything wrong.' So he fired it back up. Guy has a grown son living in a bedroom adjacent to the boiler room. They also watch a grandchild 3 days a week. The entire house was filled with 40ppm.



This guy was in denial big time, but was convinced about shutting the unit down and we did boiler install one day later.



Me: Just curious, do you have a CO alarm in the house?

Owner: I used to, but it was always beeping and my son couldn't sleep so we disconnected it.



I will be purchasing a CO Angel for all my techs soon- what a great tool.

Jim Davis_3

Personal monitor

Great job Jeff!   Not the last family that you will save and then saving your own life isn't such a bad thing either..

John Mills_5

Who makes it?

icesailor

And your employees.

icesailor

My big question is how is it that a utility shuts it down, and orders it fixed, and it is improperly fixed and as bad as it was when the utility shuts it off, why the utility doesn't check to be sure that it hasn't been running illegally?

I found two improperly vented gas furnaces that had blocked secondary heat exchangers that could only be repaired by replacement (lifetime warranty) I told the owner, he handled it and expected it to be done properly. The guy owns and flies his own aircraft. He doesn't cut corners. He hired some guy. I notified the gas supplier in person and in writing that both heaters were illegally vented, that both furnaces had blocked HX's and they would be responsible for any problems. The manager went out later and proclaimed all OK, when no permits were obtained to modify the venting. I was called a couple of months later when neither furnace would run and neither would shut off. I wouldn't touch them.

Where's the liability end?

scottnjr

Well, the utility can only do so much. They can't order anything really. All they can do is red tag an appliance and advise. They cant break into your home and shut off an appliance.

NYplumber

Jeff W said:

Me: Just curious, do you have a CO alarm in the house?



Owner: I used to, but it was always beeping and my son couldn't sleep so we disconnected it.

Sensit makes a nice detector too. It can be programmed for constant on, so your techs don't turn it off deliberately or mistakenly.

What that home owner told you I have heard twice before. The UL pretty much makes it that the CO detectors dont ring until its too late. Many homes have low levels of CO that go unknown for years, if not forever.

I have found disconnected chimneys, disconnected dryer vents, never glued pvc exhaust fittings, missing condensate traps on modcons, missing condensate tubing (on the fan) on forced draft cast iron boilers...

Buy your techs CO detectors, calibrate them monthly.

Thanks for the post.

icesailor

scottnjr said:

Well, the utility can only do so much. They can't order anything really. All they can do is red tag an appliance and advise. They cant break into your home and shut off an appliance.

Ask any good Tort Lawyer if that is true. That if a mechanic informed them of a serious health and safety violation that needed remediation, and had been shut off by the mechanic, and they did nothing about it and some persons were injured by the neglect of not doing anything about it, what might happen. if there was money to be made, the Tort Lawyers would be swimming in the school of sharks.

Most everyone carries a camera phone. When you see something bad, document it. It might save your financial @$$ someday.

pecmsg

scottnjr said:

Well, the utility can only do so much. They can't order anything really. All they can do is red tag an appliance and advise. They cant break into your home and shut off an appliance.

No but they sure can from the street and it wont go back on until they inspect!

Tinman

@Ice - With all those stars after your moniker, I think your name ought to be General Ice? : ) Or, Patton?

icesailor

"The Old Fool" is just fine.

Harvey Ramer

The worst one I ever came across was a System 2000 oil boiler with a gas conversion burner on it and a power venter that could suck a golf ball through a garden hose when it worked. Also a barometric damper that did little good.

I won't go into details. Let it suffice to say, I condemned the whole mess, and disconnected the gas and power much to the penny pinching landlord's displeasure.

"It worked yesterday, why doesn't it work today?"

Sorry.

j a_2

Its all so easy from the keyboard to advise, but every situation is different…Those of us that have been basement dwellers for 30 plus years,have seen in unimaginable amount of unsafe conditions…You can’t make anyone do what they don’t want to…If you feel its bad enough contact the local authority, having justification….Your damed if you do and damed if you don’t….If they call you for a gas leak fix the leak,if they call you for c o detector going off fix the c o problem…Walking around someones house with a bottle of snoop or a c o checker , when not asked, is not advisable in todays world...

RobG

j a said:

Its all so easy from the keyboard to advise, but every situation is different…Those of us that have been basement dwellers for 30 plus years,have seen in unimaginable amount of unsafe conditions…You can’t make anyone do what they don’t want to…If you feel its bad enough contact the local authority, having justification….Your damed if you do and damed if you don’t….If they call you for a gas leak fix the leak,if they call you for c o detector going off fix the c o problem…Walking around someones house with a bottle of snoop or a c o checker , when not asked, is not advisable in todays world...

I disagree, a personal CO detector is just that, personal. It's there for your own protection.

j a_2

Oh thats fine, no problem there, just not my thing

RobG

j a said:

Oh thats fine, no problem there, just not my thing

Are you saying that you would go into a home full of CO, replace the circulator or whatever the problem was and leave the owners with a house full of CO?
I would evacuate the home, shut off the gas and call the gas utility and the fire company. Better safe than a lawsuit IMHO.

j a_2

RobG said:

j a said:

Oh thats fine, no problem there, just not my thing

Are you saying that you would go into a home full of CO, replace the circulator or whatever the problem was and leave the owners with a house full of CO?
I would evacuate the home, shut off the gas and call the gas utility and the fire company. Better safe than a lawsuit IMHO.

Rob, I will refrain from answering a question such as that…If I care to respond I will do as the boss says..Send a private message…But don’t expect one...

RobG

JA, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say? Would you not equip your techs with personal CO monitors and expect them to alert the homeowners and proper authorities were there a danger? As doctors take an oath to "do no harm", we as service people have an obligation to protect the health of the nation. No ifs ands or buts!
If a customer is upset that you found CO in the home without them asking you to check you will probably lose that customer one way or the other. I prefer losing them in the live way.

GW

Where do you buy these?

RobG

GW said:

Where do you buy these?

These are excellent units and can be clipped to a belt or shirt pocket.

http://www.aeromedix.com/safety-equipment/carbon-monoxide-detectors/pocket-co-300-carbon-monoxide-detector/

ChrisJ

RobG said:

GW said:

Where do you buy these?

These are excellent units and can be clipped to a belt or shirt pocket.

http://www.aeromedix.com/safety-equipment/carbon-monoxide-detectors/pocket-co-300-carbon-monoxide-detector/

For that price to protect your life and possibly save others how could a professional not own one?

Seriously?


Also, in regards to the original post how could anyone be dumb enough to have the utility shut a furnace down due to CO problems and then, regardless of who "fixed" it, use it and remove a CO alarm because it keeps getting triggered!? That's beyond amazing.

Jeff W_2

ChrisJ you are right- but it really happened. I've seen some amazing reactions from customers when telling them about dangerous CO levels in their house. They often get a 2nd opinion- which is understandable...but only if that person is actually testing. I had one lady who my tech red-tagged with his CO analyzer (CO readings in the living space) , and I went out with another machine to confirm readings and showed her the $3000 worth of equipment that we calibrate yearly that we used to test. She ended up calling a local yokel who looked at the equipment, used a match next to the draft hood- and declared everything OK. Messenger gets shot a lot on these calls...

icesailor

And if her dog and cat died, and she had to spend quality time in a Hyperbaric Chamber, she would have no recollection of you ever telling her that there was anything wrong, nor her calling the local Hackaroo expert who told her that there was no CO danger according to his lit match test. He was probably lit when he lit the match.

Those mentioned above are fine for pilots in a confined space with single engine aircraft or twins with Av-Gas heaters. The really good ones are the UEI's that run on a 9 volt battery, not a button battery. If you keep it on a key chain, it will take a beating, and they might give funny readings in your pocket. My UEI will do that. But it is as accurate as my Bacharach Fyreright Insight Digital Analyzed. From 10 PPM CO to 1,000+ PPM CO. Comes with a nice leather case and you can clip it ti things.

What many don't realize about CO, is that you can walk into concentrations that will disable you before you know what is wrong, and the next thing is unrecoverable dead.

Steamhead is fond of saying "You can't fix stupid".

My son told me "You can't teach it either".

Tim McElwain

The simple truth is we who know have to protect those who do not from themselves.

If something is unsafe then shut it off and make it inoperative so that it can't be used and that is not accomplished with a shut off valve or a switch. Then contact the local utility for gas or the oil company for oil or the propane company. Last of all the local fire department. Then send the customer a registered letter.

Most utilities will protect themselves from a law suit by shutting something off that is unsafe and then assist the customer to resolve the problem.

I am a big fan of personal protective equipment and have been using a Testo belt carried CO detector for years. I also have four low level CO Experts CO detectors in my home and all my children and grandchildren have them. Low level means it alarms at 9PPM immediately. Most detectors do not alarm until 70 PPM at 240 minutes in accordance with UL2034 requirements I would not have one of those in my house.

Sal Santamaura

Tim McElwain said:

...I also have four low level CO Experts CO detectors in my home and all my children and grandchildren have them. Low level means it alarms at 9PPM immediately...

My home is equipped with that model too. I wouldn't even consider not having one.

Tim McElwain said:

...Most detectors do not alarm until 70 PPM at 240 minutes in accordance with UL2034 requirements I would not have one of those in my house.

The only reason to have one in the house is compliance with some of the misguided laws that require it. So, spend the few bucks and install it. But don't rely on it!

j a_2

How about this….Have your boiler/water heater installed by a lic.insured contractor with all the appropriate permits….Have it serviced as manf. specifies….Dont make any changes like a kids playroom in the area of the boiler without consulting a qualified, contractor…If your a homeowner and call a pro in to work on some hacks crap…Beware he may just say, best call the hack back…Truly in some cases it is near impossible TO FIX STUPID...

ChrisJ

j a said:

How about this….Have your boiler/water heater installed by a lic.insured contractor with all the appropriate permits….Have it serviced as manf. specifies….Dont make any changes like a kids playroom in the area of the boiler without consulting a qualified, contractor…If your a homeowner and call a pro in to work on some hacks crap…Beware he may just say, best call the hack back…Truly in some cases it is near impossible TO FIX STUPID...

I called a licensed and insured contractor to service my boiler and he said it was like brand new and working perfect.

No mention of the rotted block and plugged chimney.

My CO alarm saved me and my family from that licensed and insured HVAC contractor. And that was a cheesy standard CO alarm.

I'm looking into buying the alarm Tim McElwain recommended.

j a_2

Thats definitely the one I would get….the one Tim recommended…What type of service did you call him for….What was the complaint and what did he invoice you for…Hope it was not an annual insp., thats not acceptable…What were the readings supplied to you from his combustion analyzer….He did use one,correct? How long after he did his service before you found the chimney plugged….And what was it plugged with? Do you get the chimney cleaned/insp. annually? Is it capped? Gas or oil….

ChrisJ

j a said:

Thats definitely the one I would get….the one Tim recommended…What type of service did you call him for….What was the complaint and what did he invoice you for…Hope it was not an annual insp., thats not acceptable…What were the readings supplied to you from his combustion analyzer….He did use one,correct? How long after he did his service before you found the chimney plugged….And what was it plugged with? Do you get the chimney cleaned/insp. annually? Is it capped? Gas or oil….

Called him to figure out why I was getting bad water hammer and to clean the boiler and check the draft. Oil fired Burnham V8. We had moved into the house that week and I figured being I didn't know the history, was best to get the burner serviced. I was concerned about the draft because every time it fired up the barometric damper slammed shut and stayed there and the basement smelled like a diesel bus had been running in it.

He didn't service it, he didn't check the draft, he did almost nothing. He did charge us though.

Chimney was plugged in the bottom elbow with soot and other junk. It was also clogged higher up due to multiple liner sections being jammed into too small of a chimney. That's a whole other story though. The V8 had two passages through the block, one of which was almost completely filled with rust clumps and junk from the rotting block.



Either way, my point was a quality CO alarm is a must. It sure saved our butts.

At the time, I had never even seen an oil burner so I didn't realize that stink was wrong. I had no clue, and when you have a home inspector and then a licensed HVAC guy both tell you it's working fine, you tend to believe them. Scary thing is, the boiler was only doing domestic hot water at the time, not even any real heating.

j a_2

Sounds like you had the very best of intentions….You said it was banging and it was only supplying hot water, that warrants checking…Post a pic of the beast, lets look…and try to help….Lic H V A C is a very loose term…Was he a lic. oil tech.? Home inspectors should stick to dirty windows and peeling paint, at best…Yup understand c o detectors,was your main issue….No home should be without one…..

ChrisJ

j a said:

Sounds like you had the very best of intentions….You said it was banging and it was only supplying hot water, that warrants checking…Post a pic of the beast, lets look…and try to help….Lic H V A C is a very loose term…Was he a lic. oil tech.? Home inspectors should stick to dirty windows and peeling paint, at best…Yup understand c o detectors,was your main issue….No home should be without one…..

Hehe, J a, the beast is long long gone.
It was banging while heating, but it had only heated the house a few short times as it was at the end of April. Have a look at the pictures at the link in my signature and you can see the previous boiler.

He did replaced my wet return which sadly wasn't the cause and put four Heat timer varivalves on radiators that made things worse. The varivalves are now my neighbors main vents.

The guy claimed to be a steam expert as well as an oil burner expert. IMO he was a guy running his dad's business into the toilet.

j a_2

So very sad…Happens so often…Did not realize this was old news… Oil guys, gas guys, H V A C guys, handy guys, neighbors, work buddies, smart guys, are not steam guys as a general rule…Steam guys kook like steam guys, old, grouchy, ugly,dirty hands, but very dedicated and useful, when you need them...

icesailor

@Sal Santamaura:

""" The only reason to have one in the house is compliance with some of the misguided laws that require it. So, spend the few bucks and install it. But don't rely on it! """

Those misguided laws were put there because too many people were dying from CO poisoning. Once you get a personal CO detector, and carry it with you when it is on, and monitoring, you start to understand how common it is.

Ever notice those fans mounted on telephone worker trucks with the hole running into man hole work spaces? The CO is heavier than air and falls into the workspace on the ground. It sucks fresh air from 8' high and blows it down into the workspace. So the worker doesn't get sick.

When they ran tunnels under rivers, they had a thing they called "Caisson's Disease". A form of bad air and CO.

If it gets you, you will be the last to know. It might take some tests and an astute Medical Examiner to figure it out.

vaporvac

This happens with some regularity with roadwork crews, etc., if one reads the news carefully. Very scary.
I don't think most HOs are even aware of a personal co detector and don't realize the issues with the CO alarms that are code ie. those from the big box stores. I certainly didn't until reading some posts here this past year.

j a_2

icesailor said:

@Sal Santamaura:

""" The only reason to have one in the house is compliance with some of the misguided laws that require it. So, spend the few bucks and install it. But don't rely on it! """

Those misguided laws were put there because too many people were dying from CO poisoning. Once you get a personal CO detector, and carry it with you when it is on, and monitoring, you start to understand how common it is.

Ever notice those fans mounted on telephone worker trucks with the hole running into man hole work spaces? The CO is heavier than air and falls into the workspace on the ground. It sucks fresh air from 8' high and blows it down into the workspace. So the worker doesn't get sick.

When they ran tunnels under rivers, they had a thing they called "Caisson's Disease". A form of bad air and CO.

If it gets you, you will be the last to know. It might take some tests and an astute Medical Examiner to figure it out.

CARBON MONOXIDE HAS NEARLY THE DENSITY OF AIR. CO is slightly lighter. You can figure this out. For example:

O=16 C=12 N=14 H=2

You would add things to get the pure density of gasses.

H2 = 1+1 = 2 (very light)
O2 = 16+16 = 32 (slightly heavy)
N2 = 14+14 = 28 (about neutral)
CO2 = 12+16+16 = 44 (heavy)
CO = 12+16 = 28 (about neutral)
H2O = 1+1+16 = 18 (light) - as in humidity or steam
Radon = 222 (very heavy)

So what is the density of air? The air we breathe is composed of 80% Nitrogen, 19% Oxygen, .6% inert gases and .4% Carbon Dioxide.

ChrisJ

Here's a copy and paste because I'm not going to take credit for something I didn't know.

The molecular weight of air is approximately 28.97 g/mol


Along with,

There's a myth that all carbon monoxide alarms should be installed lower on the wall because carbon monoxide is heavier than air. In fact, carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air and diffuses evenly throughout the room.

icesailor

@ja:

You're appointed head of the delegation to get OSHA to change their air quality standards for people working around running automobiles. Especially where street construction is occurring. Tell those guys in the underground work spaces to shut those fans off. Especially the ones running gasoline pumps to keep the water out of leaking vaults. I never noticed the trucks running when the fans were running. They must be low amp draw motors. So the engine exhaust doesn't flow down into the work space. All those workplace accident reports that relate to CO must be all wrong. Like CO falls into below grade pits and a unsuspecting person goes into the pit to work, and passes out from CO inhalation. Rescuers don't realize the danger and what actually happened, so they go down to help. They too are overcome. Multiple deaths or trips to hyperbaric chambers.

Then, there was that report posted here about a ship from Washington State filed with wood pellets that docked in Sweden months later, the cargo holds weren't properly ventilated, the seamen who went down weren't protected,, and some died of CO exposure. Seems that wood pellets off gas. CO. So I opened a bag of wood stall pellets and stuck my CO tester. I had 12 PPM/CO.

Who'd a thunk? The more you know about CO, the more you know that you should really avoid it.

ChrisJ

@icesailor

I don't know who's wrong other than the instructions for my CO detector said it could be mounted anywhere and didn't say it had to be mounted down low. This includes on the ceiling.


Everything I found online says CO is slightly lighter than air. Besides that it is often mentioned that CO can mix with the air and flow all over, but nothing about of it sinking.

Of course, there is the fact that engine exhaust is not pure CO.

icesailor

Its all subjective conjecture.

It was said once that CO detectors on Nat. Gas units belonged up high, and LPG ones belong low. Because LP is heavier that air.

My friend Max the fire captain told me once that when you have a serious structure fire, that you cut a hole in the roof. Fresh air to cool the fire. You stand back when you do it because a mass of hot gas will come blowing through the hole. Sooner or later, the gas will reach an O2 level that will support combustion. So it becomes a blowtorch flame. Because CO is flammable and it is CO that they are venting. Maybe that's why they want CO detectors in hallways outside of bedrooms?

Force of long habit. Whenever I am going to use my Presto-Lite B-Tank, I always look around for CO and smoke detectors. The flame will set them off and scare the crap out of you. If it is a building with a complete alarm system, and you hadn't had someone come and pull out the box and turn off the zone you're working, you get some seriously PO'd fire people who might expect you to pay for a nuisance call. Especially if it is a nursing home where all must show up to start the evacuation of the old people who can't get out of bed. If 30 guys and gals show up and it's $10.00 per call for volunteer firepersons, do the math.

Sal Santamaura

I've avoided any density controversy as follows. The latest CO Experts monitor comes with an integral stand. I placed it on the nightstand next to our bed. It's at the same level within the room as our sleeping noses. Whether unwanted CO fills the room from above or below that level, or just mixes uniformly with all the air, I'll still have infinitely more warning of low CO levels than any UL-rated detector provides.

j a_2

The good thing is you have one…In Mass one of the laws is they want one placed outside each bedroom group, reason it will warn you before it gets you…But no homes are the same so minimums are set, you got to set them as you feel comfortable