Steam distribution pipe removal options?

Summitsteam

Upfront I am NOT knowledgeable or handy

at all. I just want to have enough info to ask contractors and HVAC people in

my area.







I have a steam furnace (gas) in my basement that distributes heating to 4

radiators on my first floor and 4 radiators on my second floor.







My semi-finished basement ceiling height is like 6'8" (I'm 6'6") and

the steam distribution pipe hangs from the ceiling at about a height of 6 feet

in the open area.







The furnace is located in the front, right corner of the basement and the pipe

runs the about 2 feet from the perimeter of each wall all the way around the

basement.







It's a eyesore no matter what, and obviously problematic for me navigating

around it.







I understand it must by hung so it pitched in order to distribute the heating

properly, so I'm looking for ideas to relocate or hide the distribution pipe or

alternative heating solutions to solve this problem.







Any points in the right direction would be appreciated.

Fred

Less painful alternative

It would be much, much less painful for you to have say 6 to 8 inches removed from each of your legs that to tamper with and screw up the height and pitch of you steam mains. Just don't even consider that option anymore unless you are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to put a different type of system in and, even then, I'm not sure you'd get much additional headroom. I mean the best you could hope for is 8 inches around the outside perimeter of the basement. find ways to do what you need to do in the center of that basement!

STEAM DOCTOR

pricing

We dont discuss pricing on the wall. However,tens of thousands is probably a bit over the top. However,it certainly is expensive. The main would need to be raised. With that comes redoing evert pipe that is connected to the main. Only way to give an exact price would be to set eyes on the actual layout.

Fred

Figure of Speech

Tens of thousands was intended to be a figure of speech and certainly not a pricing discussion or quote. Lighten up.

Jamie Hall

This can be done

although it is likely to be a fairly major repipe.  By far the simplest way to manage it would be to relocate the main from about 2 feet in from the wall to as close to the wall as you can get it.  You would only gain a bit over a foot -- perhaps as much as 15 inches -- since the main, plus its insulation, is going to be at four and probably six inches or so in diameter, particularly allowing for fittings.  The problem, of course, is that not only does the main get relocated -- but you would have to redo the connections to each of the risers off the main, which would involve a good bit of pipe fitting.



None of it is that hard.  Just time consuming.



You could then, if you liked, encase the main in the top of some cabinets or something of the sort which were on the wall, perhaps.

Steamhead

There is a way

to run a steam main without pitch of any kind. Basically, you run it tight to the ceiling and every runout (branch line) comes off from the bottom, thereby serving as a drip point to get rid of condensate. Each riser to a radiator is then dripped into the return line, with a water seal if it is a dry return rather than a wet one. This involves a bit more piping, but solves the headroom problem.



I've never actually seen this done, but one of my Dead Men's Books describes it. There's no reason it shouldn't work.

Summitsteam2

Finding a contractor

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it can be done in theory.



How would I find a contractor that can actually do the job. Just keep calling until I find someone familiar with the process you describe, or finding this book and asking a contractor to educate themselves on the process and try to execute it?

Steamhead

Where

are you located? Have you tried the Find a Contractor page of this site?

Summitsteam2

Location

Union county NJ.



Would like to find more information on the process/set-up you described.



Where can i find that book you mentioned?

Fred

Will that actually save him any headroom?

If I'm understanding this approach correctly, it eliminates the pitch in the main but won't you eat up any saved headroom with an elbow at the bottom of the main (according to him, he has 8 branch runs), in addition to dry returns attached to each of those albeit a smaller pipe but it still has to be pitched back to a wet return.

It sounds like the better approach would be to try to push the main as close to the outside walls as possible. Even then I'm not sure there will be much headroom gain if all the branches run up those outside walls. he is only 24 inches out from the wall as it is. He may get 12 inches closer to the wall, allowing for fittings and good insulation. Not sure there is a whole lot of value in that endeavor but I realize the home owner has to make that call. 

Summitsteam2

If I understand this correctly...

IF I'm repiping the whole system, then I might was well raise the pipe, eliminate the pitch AND move it closer to the perimeter of the walls all at the same time.



Sounds like the elbows/returns you are speaking of would then be more extrusions from walls, then hanging into the interior of the room, which would be a more attractive compromise.



ALL my radiators are locked on exterior walls, so all the branches are located near the perimeter of the space anyway.



Assuming I'm understanding this all correctly.

Fred

Other Alternatives??

How old is your boiler and what shape is it in? As much as I'm a proponent of steam heat and use it as my primary (only) heat source, you may want to also get quotes to have the system replaced with radiant hot water (which uses much smaller piping that could be tucked up in between the floor joists. Another alternative may be to take the whole system out and look at forced air, possibly a small unit in the basement, for the first floor (possibly it could be positioned so that all the runs are also up in between the joists and a small unit in the attic that heats the second floor. That way you could have two heating zones and even add central air. As I said, I use my steam heat exclusively but I also installed forced air heat/central air in my basement, for central air to the first floor and forced air/central air on the third floor for central air on the second and third floors. That gives me a back-up heat source, in an emergency, gives me the central air and two cooling zones as well as two heating zones if needed (which I hope I never need). The guys on this Wall will probably cringe that I suggest this but, for the kind of money you are possibly looking at, all options should be considered.   

Summitsteam2

IN FACT

I've already got an an estimate for that (forced air). I have central air already, with the compressor (?) located in my attic.



The HVAC guy recommended to me who came in (he doesn't do steam systems) suggested a two zone system. The attic system would heat the second floor and use the existing duct work.



He did not think the system would adaquately heat the first floor, so he's suggesting a second forced air unit in the basement, and then ducting the first floor so that the heating vents are located in the floor. He said air coming out of the attic system through the AC ceiling vents wouldn't heat the first floor well and the basement wouldn't get any heat.



The option does eliminate an expense I'm already considering, which is the relocation (and in some cases recessing) the existing radiators to accomodate a fairly extensive home remodel.



In fact the branches to two upstairs radiators are already going to be repiped because they're currently located in a wall I'm looking to knockdown.



So I'm looking at a fairly significant expense to recess my living room radiator, relocate my dining room and family room radiators, AND repiping my first two bedroom branches (because they're in the wall I'm knocking down).



So I explored the forced air option because it would 1) be partially offset just from the expense I'm already incurring AND would be further offset by the expense of the job I asked about here; and 2.) it would eliminate the radiators entirely from the home, which would have significant design benefits, and again, the elimination of the distribution pipe in my basement.



I received the estimate. It was significant but basically what I thought it might be, but doing some research over the weekend, forced air didn't seem to get too great reviews. It struck me as unknowledgeable as I am as being a vastly inferior system.



Is that the general consensus here?

Fred

Depends

IMO nothing heats like steam. it is an even heat as long as you keep it working properly but let's face it forced air probably accounts for 70% to 80% of the heat source for residential property in the US and probably 90+% of all new construction. It is very reliable and there have been many advances that allow for these systems to "stage" so that you don't have the harsh blasts of cool air when the heat first comes on. Like any system, it has to be properly sized and installed but, for those who never had steam, they don't have anything else to "gauge" or compare it too and it is very effective/low maintenance (compared to steam). Don't want to "sell" you on forced air because I love my steam, but it is a very, very viable and reliable alternative. 

Summitsteam2

Okay...

Well, I'm going to ask forced air questions in the appropriate forum, but any red flags pop up for you in the project laid out?



What would be the appropriate forum to see more opinions about the proposal/estimate I've received?



Also, my furnace is maybe a decade old. I assume there is no after market for used steam furnaces, is there?

Fred

A couple things to further investigate

As it relates to the forced air approach, it's pretty straight forward. Just make sure you have a good install and that each furnace is properly sized, which is a simple task for a good installer. The only caution I would have, if you stick with steam, be aware that recessing radiators Will have a significant effect on how they heat a room. Much of the radiation is lost when the radiators are recessed and you may need larger radiators to heat the space.

As far as market for used boilers, it depends on the size, condition and brand of the boiler. There isn't a huge market but they do sell (fairly cheaply), probably locally given the cost of shipping. 

KC_Jones

Just a homeowner here

I grew up in a house with forced hot air and now live in a house with steam heat.  I would never ever own a house with forced hot air after having steam.  Any house with hydronic heat (steam or hot water) is much more comfortable than the forced hot air systems.  This of course is just my opinion.  I personally would keep the steam.  Also if you plan on doing forced hot air, the bulkheads needed to hide that duct in the basement I would think would be just as intrusive as the steam pipes.  You mention running the duct in the joist cavity, but you can't run all the duct in that cavity.  There would still need to be a main trunk that is in the center of the house to keep the heat distribution even.  Like I said just my opinion.

Fred

I'm just sayin'

Like I said throughout this thread, I love my steam also but I am willing to sacrifice headroom in my basement to keep it. If that space is needed, he has to consider all of his options. I too have lived in homes with forced air, and while it isn't as comfortable as steam, it's only because we have been spoiled by steam heat and the slow cool down of those cast iron radiators. Forced air works and works well. In this case, the homeowner is talking about major expense and tearing out radiators, recessing some of them, all of which will affect the comfort level/efficiency of the current system. As much as I hate to say it, forced air won't be viewed as a liability to the average home buyer if/when he decides to move on. Steam, on the other hand probably will be simply because most people don't understand it and don't want to spend the time to understand it.



As far as the main trunk for forced air is concerned, in my case, I was able to keep that trunk in the furnace/utility room and branch off of it by carrying the duct work up between the floor joist. It's a matter of trying to position the furnace to get the configuration right. in the worst case, he may have a small bulkhead along one wall. After all, in this case he is only heating what appears to be 4 rooms on the first floor. 

Steamhead

Not sure which one it's in

so I'll have to do some digging.



If you're in Joisey, get in touch with Thatcher. One of the owners posts here as JStar and he's really good with steam. Thatcher is on the Find a Contractor page of this site, under New Jersey.

Charlie from wmass

you can down feed the steam

Call Thatcher, get a price, and decide from there.

icesailor

Time Consuming:

"" "None of it is that hard.  Just time consuming" ""

Doesn't that usually mean lots of money for labor and not so much for material?

Steamhead

Found it!

it's in Alt's House Heating Plans. This book has been digitized- go here and if the page doesn't display immediately, scroll to page 100, or simply enter page 100 in the "Jump To" box at the top and click Go:



http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003636713;view=1up;seq=110



All the details one should need to install a non-pitched steam main are on pages 100 and 101- note that the digitized page numbers do actually correspond with those in the original book.