So many problems...would be grateful for any help

bainofmyexistence

We rent a very old house with a one pipe-steam system.  In 6 years, despite MANY professional repairs, it has never worked properly.  I am so frustrated at having spent so much time worrying, researching and babysitting it.  Any advice MUCH appreciated

1. The last several days, the boiler is running dry about every 12 hours.  It's been quite cold (20s during the day and single digits at night), but it's been quite cold all winter and only the last few days has it done this so quickly.  Boiler was replaced 2 years ago.

2. The thermostat is on the 1st floor which doesn't seem to have enough radiators.  So when it's really cold outside, the system runs almost continuously to try to satisfy the thermostat.  We frequently cannot maintain 67 or 68.  But this causes the small and smallish bedrooms on the 2nd floor to be beastly hot - 80+.  We had Danfoss TRVs installed in 2 bedrooms 2 weeks ago.  They are not controlling the heat consistently, even at the lowest setting.  The owner of the company which installed them tells me he doesn't know what else to do.  He had never heard ot TRVs until I asked him if they would be a viable solution to the heat disparity. 

3. One radiator is reguarly spitting water from the vent.  The vent has been replaced more times than I can count in the last 2 years.  Last week, the service man added a vertical pipe to the fitting then installed a slider so that the top is now almost level with the top of the radiator.  It's leaking worse than ever - more than a gallon/half hour.  But not consistenly.  The pitch of the radiator is fine, btw.

Any suggestions?  I am going crazy!  Thanks so much

nicholas bonham-carter

Curing symptoms or cause?

It seems as though the system has a leak. Have your head-scratcher overfill the boiler, and look for drips over a few hours. Examine all the returns, and supplies for water or steam leak.

Once you have a tight system, then concentrate on its balance. I suspect your pressure is too high, and that the spitting vents are the result of that, and weak main venting.

Get a copy of the lost art of steam heating from the shop here and read it with your serviceman to see how to make things better.--NBC

BobC

Pictures?

It would help if you posted some pictures of the boiler and the piping around it so we can identify any problems that might be causing your problems.



When the water level drops, does it ever seem to come back up when the boilers been off for a while? If the water is really leaving we are talking about gallons of water and you would think the cause would become apparent. Do any of the boiler return pipes go into the cement? If they do there could be a leak where you can't see. A boiler that new should never develop a leak but it can happen so do have the boiler overfilled to be sure that is not the problem. Also make sure the pressure is below 2 PSI and have the pigtail under the pressuretrol checked to make sure it is clear.



Bob

Fred

Try a few things

I had to learn by trial and error too, until I found this Wall. There are a few things that seem minor that I learned are very, very important. Do these things, in addition to what the guys are telling you,on this Wall,  and I'll bet you get a smooth running system:

1. Look at your near boiler piping and compare it to the installation diagram (get a copy if you don't have it.

2. Have the boiler skimmed very, very slowly. You may have to do it several times but you will see an improvement each time.

3. Spend the 50 bucks and get a low pressure gauge (0-3 lb) and install it on the same pigtail as the pressuretrol using a T fitting. While you are doing that blow out the pigtail and make sure it is clean.

4. Make sure your pressuretrol is set at .05(lowest setting on the outside dial (adjusted by the screw on top) and then take the cover off of the pressuretrol and turn the dial to "1".

5 After the low pressure gauge is installed and the Pressuretrol is adjusted, sit by the boiler during a cycle (on one of those cold days) and see if the pressuretrol is actually cutting the burner off when the pressure gets around 1.5 lbs. (the .05 cut -in plus the 1lb cut-out, set using the dial inside the pressuretrol). I would bet it doesn't. Mine would get up to 3, 4, or even 5 lbs, which is way, way too high and causing the water to push out of the radiator air vents.

6. Make sure you have large vents on each of your Mains. I like Hoffman #75 but most of the Pros like the Gorton #2. Both work very well. If you have vents on the Mains, make sure they are working. You should hear some air coming out of them during the first couple minutes of a boiler cycle. If not, they may be stuck closed. Replace them. You can try cleaning them but that doesn't seem to last long.

7. If you see the pressure on the low pressure gauge go much over 1.5 to 2 lbs follow this procedure to re-calibrate the Pressuretrol:

Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn to much, a tiny fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it. You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

8. Finally, make sure you don't have huge air infiltration or heat loss on the first floor around doors and windows especially. If you do weatherstrip and caulk. Check behind your thermostat and see if there is a large whole where the wiring comes through. That air infiltration will keep your thermostat from ever being satisfied on cold days. I had that very problem, even tough my stat is on an inside wall.

I hope this helps.



 

bainofmyexistence

Thank you

I appreciate the responses.  Let me go through the suggestions.

I think it is very likely the system does have a leak, but I don't know how we can determine where is it.  There is no basement or crawl space, except a 10x10 area that houses the boiler, water heater and sump pump.  There is no visible evidence around the outside of the house that indicates that much water loss.  But whether there is a leak or not, why would the boiler run dry so quickly all of a sudden?  After my head-scratching serviceman (love that) was last here, the leaking radiator is leaking more, but even that isn't a whole boilerful.

I have a long way to go learning what's what (I already know far more than I really wanted to about steam heat).  Can someone link to the Lost Art?  I poked around in the resource tab but didn't see it.

My symptoms do sound like the pressure gets too high. If I'm looking at the right things, the cut-in is .5.  As far as I have seen, it doesn't get above about 2 psi.  Am I looking at the right thing or missing something?  I'm looking at the gauge that reads 0-30psi.

I will post some pictures shortly.  When you ask if the boiler returns go into the cement, I'm not sure what that means.  At some point they all go under the inaccessible part of the house.  I'll ask my serviceman to check the pigtail as well.

I'll ask him to skim the boiler also.  I have no idea about the venting on the mains, but will ask him to check that.  Since the house is a rental, I am hesitant to do too much on my own, but I'll ask him about all the pressuretrol adjustments. 

We do have major drafts.  Especially on the first floor.  I have asked our landlord about them, but their attitude is that it's such an old house, it's just that way.  I don't know whether they are hesitant because in the summer the wood swells so much that in some of those same places, doors and windows stick or what. 

Does anyone know why my TRVs should be so finicky?  I finally turned them all the way down to the * and the rooms were quite cool.  But why shouldn't they work - they are brand new!  It would seem strange both could be faulty.  I read the installation instructions thinking maybe they were installed incorrectly but I think they're right.  He did not drain the system, but the instructions did not specify doing that. Should he have?

Thanks again.

ChrisJ

Pictures

Pictures will help a lot.

Can you take pictures of the boiler and the piping around it? Also, take a picture of at least one of the TRVs.



What vent is being used on the TRVs? If you vent too fast it will cause the room to overheat as will running too much pressure. If the vent clogs with water it can cause the radiator to heat even if the TRV is closed.



Pictures will help a lot.

Ironman

Books

Go to the "Shop" tab above and then to the steam books.



For a home owner, I'd recommend that you get "We've Got Steam Heat" first. It's more home owner oriented. Or, you can get the four set package, but start with this one.

bainofmyexistence

Pictures here

Thank you again for the replies and the sources of information. Here are some pictures of my boiler arrangement, the perpetually leaking radiator vent and one of the TRVs. It is at the vent end, so I assume it is valve and vent in one?

One of the repairmen commented that a steam heat system is theoretically simple and efficient but that in actuality, it is alive. Ours seems to be possessed of a particular impish character. Since I posted, it has worked brilliantly without overheating the second floor despite records cold temps and not leaking from the troublesome radiator. I can't figure it out!

Fred

Figure it out now

Figure out what is happening now or be prepared for another occurrence. If you did nothing to correct the problem, it will return. What has changed to suddenly make it run so well? From looking at your pictures, I see a lot of copper piping, risers, header, equalizer, etc. From what I see, the header looks to be the same size pipe as the riser and I think it should be at least one size larger. All that water loss can't just stop (unless it was all due to that one radiator, if you actually were losing a gallon per 1/2 hour, as you say)

Did you check the pigtail that your pressuretrol is connected to? I suppose it could have been clogged, allowing your pressure to get way out of control (but you say pressure never got over 2 psi) 

Anyway, you have a little reprieve while it is running properly. That's giving you time to figure out how to implement a permanent fix.