Beating a dead horse.

Harvey Ramer

I suppose this is like beating a dead horse, has anyone heard a specific reason that Burnham does not allow gas conversion burners.



I had a call tonight to convert one but, I had to tell him no, because of Burnham's position on the matter. I did not want to assume liability on the appliance because if anything bad were to happen, my fault or not, I could be in trouble.



Harvey

Steamhead

The answer changes

seemingly according to who you talk to.



There really is no technical or safety-related reason it won't work, if a current-model burner such as the Carlin EZ-Gas is used. What model Burnham was this?



And, anyone want to start a pool on when the consistent naysayer shows up in this thread? I'll take Monday morning, when Burnham's offices open again.................

Mark Eatherton

What would really be cool...

And I don't recommend ANYONE try this, other than the fine folk at Burnham…



Take a large stainless steel mod/con style burner tube, covered with the usual cloth and or chain mail cover, connect it to a neg reg as valve, set a sensor in the condensate area near the steam line, and run the boiler up to steam, and then as the boiler approaches the vapor production set point, it begins modulating, but not condensing.



I saw a couple of burner tube manufacturers, gas valve makers, and blower manufacturers at AHR that I am sure could work up a neg-reg gas train with an EBM Pabst blower (is there any other?), use an off shelf PLC controller, and let it rip.



If you've ever taken the Lochinvar factory tour, and you went through the gas lab, you know the radial radiant energy power of this burner. It is amazing…. Knock your eyes out energy.



ME

Aaron_in_Maine

Monday

Monday morning before 10am. Lol

billtwocase

reason?

boiler sales. They don't profit from conversion burners

Robert O'Brien

Boiler sales?

i bet if they offered a gas burner option for the Megasteam they would pick up market share

billtwocase

No doubt Rob

only if

SWEI

Sounds a lot like the Midco LNB

that Jstar and MarkS are tinkering with http://www.midcointernational.com/products/low_nox/

jumper

is it a matter of efficiency?

If an oil fired boiler receives a significant amount of heat by radiation, then does it require a higher BTU gas burner?

Mark N

Market Share

All companies are in business to make a profit. Burnham already offers a gas steam boiler, their Independence Boiler. What is Burnham's market share with their Independence boiler?

Maybe by offering the Megasteam with a gas gun option the market share they would gain would be at the expense of their Independence boiler and possibly their profit margin is higher with the Independence then the Megasteam.

icesailor

UL Listings?

I don't care one way or the other. But it may have something to do with insurance liability and that the UL listing for that particular oil boiler/burner was only "listed" for oil. To have it "Listed" probably means serious testing and related costs. And paying the CSA and UL their Vigorish fee's.

Burnham's liability insurers may not be willing to cover liability for a unlisted use. Therefore, if someone installs a gas conversion burner and someone dies, there's no recourse to Burnham because they do not approve of the conversion.

I once did a job where a residential side of a building faced and connected to a commercial use side. They needed a 2 hour separation fire wall. They could have done it with 2 sheets of 5/8" sheetrock. But, someone made a mistake and it needed to be a 4" block wall. Both were listed systems. But 2 sheets of 5/8" sheetrock in this application wasn't. The owners tried to get 6" of solid 5/8 sheet rock approved. There is no testing for 6" of sheetrock. It costs well over $100,000 to have an engineering company do the testing and get it listed.

There's no money in that for Burnham.  

RobG

Megasteam

If they offered the Megasteam with a gas or oil "kit", wholesalers could stock two boilers for the space of one. I would think that it would make the boiler more attractive to stocking wholesalers, in turn increasing their market share.



JMHO,

Rob

Harvey Ramer

Boiler Type

The customer told me over the phone that the boiler is a burnham v8 series steam appliance.



I explained to him that burnham doesn't condone converting their boilers and will void the warranty.



He replies. Does it cause any mechanical malfunctions or safety concerns?



I said, not that I'm aware of. As know it's a company policy and I don't know the reason why.



He said. Well I don't care about the warranty. If it breaks I'll just get a new one. Are you going to do it or not?



I said, well I'm not entirely comfortable accepting the liability associated with an unsanctioned conversion. All the while I'm thinking, this is so stupid. It would be perfectly fine. But, what if?



He said, Well if you are not going to do it, I will find somebody else that will.



I said, I'm sorry, and that was that.



All the while I'm thinking to myself, that is exactly what I would do if I were in your shoes.



So the bottom line is this. The boiler is going to be converted to gas regardless of how Burnham feels about it. The customer thought the whole thing was idiotically stupid and assured me that he would not buy another Burnham, ever. 

You have to ask yourself. Who gained anything out of this? I didn't, the customer didn't and Burnham didn't.



I think US Boiler would be smart to publish a paper drawing a clear line on this and stating all the facts, whatever they may be, so everybody could appreciate their decision on the matter.



Harvey  

Jason_13

Gas conversion

All I know us the oil boiler I&O states it cannot be converted to a gaseous or solid fuel. I was told the boiler must be certified for gas and oil to allow the conversion otherwise it is a code violation. Just my 2 cents.

Steamhead

Who, exactly

told you that?

ChrisJ

Burnham

There is a good chance that if Burnham did allow conversion burners that I would have a Megasteam in my basement instead of a WM EG-45.  That would've been enough to change my mind.

Mark Eatherton

Question...

In looking at their I&O manual, and parts break down, I see that a person can do DHW with an internal coil (optional), but I am somewhat confused. THe coil is above the water line, in fact in the steam dome. How does one keep their house from overheating if they chose the DHW option? Or is it a seasonal preheat situation with another DHW system to top it off, or am I not looking at the drawings correctly…



http://cdn.usboiler.net/products/boilers/megasteam/assets/manual.pdf



ME

BobC

I talked to them

when i replaced my v75 boiler and was going to switch to gas. I told the salesman i was interested in using a Megasteam on gas and he told me that would void the warranty on the boiler because it was not certified for gas. He sounded apologetic about it so I suspect this rule is coming from on high and may have more to do with legal issues than anything else.



I ended up installing a Smith with the Ez-Gas on it. The only people still using oil are those with no other option. With all the problems we read about with the IN series gas steam boilers I'm afraid Burnham will be reduced to selling buggy whips soon.



Bob

Mark N

Dead Boilers

The only problem I've seen here on the Wall with IN series boilers is rotting out from excessive feed water and bad piping. Any boiler will rot our from excessive feed water or water with excessive chlorides or low PH. No brand of boiler is exempt. The boiler can't be blamed for water quality or system problems. I don't know why Burnham won't offer their Megasteam with a gas option. How many other companies have certified their oil boilers to be used with gas? Only 2 I've heard of are Slant-Fin and Smith.

JStar

Midco

Please keep Mark's name ahead of mine. He is the mastermind behind the EcoSteam modulating boiler, I just tightened a couple of bolts and stuck a probe in the stack.

Steamhead

Add to that

Columbia, whose CI boilers are supplied by Utica. On Weil-McLain boilers it depends on who you talk to.



But I'd go ahead and convert it- if done right you won't have a problem.

Harper111

You made the correct call

One would bet that if you called your insurance company, or the customer's, that they would not be covered in the event something should go wrong.



Either way, sine most would probably agree they make some of the best products on the market, it would probably be best if they just bought an entirely new Burnham unit that is under warranty and has greater efficiency.

bob eck

Burnham

LIABILITY the Burnham Oil boilers were tested and certified for Oil only. Not oil / nat gas / LP gas. If you convert a Burnham oil boiler over to gas the warranty ends and you the contractor are taking on the liability if something should go wrong. If I was asked to put a gas burner gun on a oil boiler I would contact the boiler manufacture and ask them if they approve doing this and if so with what brand gas burner gun is approved. Also if this effects their warranty.

Harper111

Nicely stated

It may be technically possible but is it worth the liability risk?



One could guess that there is probably no insurance company in the entire country that would insure an owner or contractor in this circumstance.

nicholas bonham-carter

Switching from oil to gas

Since there seems to be a general trend to switch, rather than fight, more manufacturers will see the necessity of certifying their boilers for gas guns.--NBC

Harper111

Just buy a new one

With the efficiency being so high on the newer units, customers should just buy a brand new one. It makes very little sense to upgrade a 60 to 70% efficiency unit. The money saved from the efficiency would more than pay for the new unit in a short time period.

ChrisJ

Efficiency

Harper111,

I believe the boilers guys have in mind in this thread are 85% or greater many of which are not very old. In fact, many are brand new and have never been fired on oil.

Steamhead

It took

two more days... I would have lost the bet. 

Steamhead

Harper111's record is still perfect

he hasn't posted here at all except to try to scare people away from conversion burners. Info is here:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/5513749/Harper111



But we just got two more conversion burner contracts. Go ahead Harper111, keep on telling people to waste their money by throwing away their relatively new boilers- they'll just sign with someone like us who can offer them a better deal. Trolls do have their usefulness.

Harper111

Does your insurance cover all liabilities for you?

The biggest question is whether your insurance will cover all liabilities for anything going wrong if or when the modifications fail. This is a conversion that is not certified by the manufacturer after all.

Harper111

95% then

Boilers like an Alpine 95% condensing boiler are, in my opinion, unbeatable in the marketplace. The fuel savings from replacing the entire boiler would more than pay for itself rather than doing a conversion on older less efficient equipment.



With the fantastic reliability and overall fuel savings, it is a great choice.

ChrisJ

Interesting

It's interesting you recommended a Burnham brand boiler. Why not a high efficiency cast iron Weil Mclain?



See, thing is, my system is steam and companies like Burnham refuse to update their steam boilers so I'm stuck with 82% for NG or 86% for oil.



As a homeowner, if my installer told me he could not convert my Burnham from oil to gas and they are the only manufacturer that doesn't allow it I would tell him fine, install a new boiler but I don't want a Burnham. Especially when a Burnham NG steam boiler is rated 82% AFUE and a Megasteam is 86% AFUE. Great, buy a new boiler with a lower rating.

Steamhead

As long as

the conversion burner is listed for conversion use- which they all are- and is installed according to the procedures set forth in the burner's manual, there's no problem.



You really need to read your history. Decades ago, when oil and gas began to replace coal as the fuel of choice for home heating, boilers were rarely replaced. Instead, they were updated with listed conversion burners. Many such boilers were made by companies that did not survive the Depression- the one that began in 1929, not 2008- so it would have been impossible to contact the manufacturers. The solution was for UL and other agencies to specifically approve these burners for conversion use when installed according to very specific instructions.



This system still exists today. Look in the I&O manual for any current-model conversion burner, or on the burner itself if you encounter one, and you will see the listing information.



Tim McElwain, a gentleman who we all respect, has said he has never had a problem with the many (thousands?) of conversion burners he has installed. He is one of the best in the business, and has set many examples for the rest of us to follow. I am certain that if there were any issues with these burners he would be all over it.



We haven't installed nearly the number of conversion burners Tim has, but like him we've never had an issue- just a lot of satisfied customers.



Harper111, do you have anything else to contribute to this board besides anti-conversion-burner zealotry?

Steamhead

I think that's another indication

he is involved with Burnham. He refuses to tell us anything, but one day we'll find out for sure. 

Harper111

Which company is providing a conversion kit?

Which conversion company has an approved and certified gas conversion kit for a non-approved Brunham boiler?

Steamhead

I think it's time

for you to do your own research. 

jonny88

if he does work for burnham

over the last year I installed 8 burnham ES2 and one ESC.Of the eight ES2 6 had to have their pilot assemblies replaced and also the ESC.Whats your thoughts Harper on this great brand.

Steamhead

And the ESC has been recalled

along with the PVG and SCG:



http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/US-Boiler-Recalls-Home-Heating-Boilers/

JohnNY

Burnham

Lots of boilers have been recalled and there's no point in dumping on Burnham in this thread. I've installed ~50 Burnham products in the past 12 months and stand behind every one of them.

I've had plenty of bad parts shipped with new boilers of all makes right out of the box.

It happens and there's no greater occurrence with Burnham over any other brand.



I'm not a fan of selling/installing conversion burners on boilers that are over ~10 years old, but maybe that's just a personal preference.

When I asked a tech support guy at WM about another issue he said the company considers their residential-grade boilers to be a "20-year appliance".

And again, I'm of the mindset that a powered burner offers more variables to how well, or not well, a boiler may be running than that of a fixed set of burner tubes in an atmospheric boiler.



The obvious counter to that argument is that the powered burner offers more firing options, but those options are implemented at the whim of the service tech, whomever that may be.



We Americans tend to keep boilers in operation far longer than we ought to. It seems like if it’s not actively leaking from the heat exchanger or on fire we deem old boilers to be perfectly fine based on nothing other than when we raise the thermostat we get warm radiators.



Clearly, the people offering informed opinions here are not included in this statement (Steamhead has my unwaivering respect and always will), but while there is certainly a place for conversion burners, my experience is they are far too often sold as cheap options to get a job when a far better long-term solution may be to replace the boiler.

JStar

Boilers

So how do you convince a homeowner to remove an 85%+ boiler with a power burner, and install an 82% atmospheric boiler?



Atmospheric boilers are set up on the whim of the factory assembler. Who do you trust more, your own technician with an analyzer, or a production-line worker with a pneumatic drill?



If Harper actually works for Burnham, then all he is convincing me to do is to never buy Burnham. This is a very distrubingly sneaky tactic, to come on here and peddle their products. Maybe a phone call to US BOILER will confirm his affiliation?

JohnNY

You can't have it both ways

If you don't trust the factory to consistently manufacture a boiler to perform at its best, then you can't trust their ratings either.



Again, the 85% rating on that boiler depends on the performance of that power burner.