Tim; New IFGC Question

unclejohn

IFGC on chimney friendly kits. Anybody have a copy of those sections. I'm told they are no longer acceptable on exterior chimneys

Tim McElwain

Not sure exactly what you

are referring to. It is a fact however when you look at charts in IFGC in chapter 5 section 504.3 (6a) thru 501.3 (7b) depending on local 99% winter design temps that appliances many times can't be vented into those chimneys, you will note all the NA in the charts. I am not sure what affect that would have on kits which install venting inside existing chimneys using them as a chase. I do not have my latest version of IFGC in the office it is at my training center. I am looking at 2009 version however I do not think any drastic changes have taken place.



See Figure B-19 for your temperature zone as applied to those charts.



How did this come to your attention?

Tim McElwain

The 2012 code is the latest code

it will not change until 2015. I did however look up the latest meeting of the code  folks for the International Code Council 2012/2013 Code Development Cycle (Group A 2012) group A looks at International Fuel Gas Code and makes proposed changes to that code. The proposed changes to the 2012 edition did not show any changes for venting with chimneys.



Once again what is your source. I wish I had my 2012 code book handy.

unclejohn

Actually My

Source was my Lennox distributor. They have basically stopped stocking the kits. I'm in the Washington DC area and I contacted my local code enforcement [WSSC] and was told they kits are only allowed on interior chimneys. I have used them on all chimneys in the past. I have a customer who refuses to believe me when I tell her she has to line her chimney. She says she hasn't heard of that. I ask her what codes she has heard of and she didn't have a answer for that, but still doesn't believe me.My local enforcers say it is new and went into effect on Nov. !st last year.

Tim McElwain

Unclejohn

Actually MySource was my Lennox distributor. They have basically stopped stocking the kits. I'm in the Washington DC area and I contacted my local code enforcement [WSSC] and was told they kits are only allowed on interior chimneys. DO THEY SAY THIS IS PART OF THE IFGC OR IS IT LOCAL? I ASSUME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CHIMNEY LINER KITS? WILL THEY ALLOW "B" VENTS TO BE INSTALLED IN EXISTING CHIMNEYS?I have used them on all chimneys in the past. I have a customer who refuses to believe me when I tell her she has to line her chimney. She says she hasn't heard of that. I ask her what codes she has heard of and she didn't have a answer for that, but still doesn't believe me.My local enforcers say it is new and went into effect on Nov. !st last year.  ARE THEY STILL ALLOWING EXISTING CHIMNEYS TO BE USED AS A CHACE FOR CATEGORY IV EQUIPMENT AS LISTED IN MANY MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS?

Tim McElwain

What does

WSSC stand for?

Bob Harper

WSSC

Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission. They are the AHJs from western MD down around DC. I've had many a "discussion" with their inspectors.



I'm not sure what the OP is referring to but I'm thinking its one of those chimney kits that acts like an axial draft hood on 80% furnaces.



As far as the requirement to reline, you must inspect the chimney when replacing equipment. The Std. for inspecting chimneys is NFPA 211. A proper level II inspection will undoubtedly reveal the chimney is no longer suitable for continued use for the intended purpose and therefore must be relined with a listed liner and in accordance with the IFGC, which back references 211 for heating chimneys and vents.



Basically, you have to prove a chimney does NOT need to be relined. You'll find a suitable chimney maybe one in ten thousand. Code compliant chimneys do not exist in the wild.



You reline when the flue is oversized, eroded or improperly constructed such as gaps between flue tiles. You also reline to size the flue to the appliance for performance. You reline exterior chimneys that run cold and don't draft reliably. Relining does not overcome structurally unsound chimneys, short chimneys or other major structural defects.

unclejohn

Heres What

I got from Lennox.

Dear Lennox Partners,

 

Please review the attached article from the WSSC Regulatory Services Group about Chimney Vent Restrictions taking affect December 1st in Maryland.  This will restrict the use if not totally eliminate the use of Chimney Adaptor Kits for 80% Furnace installations and require a Chimney Liner instead which will likely add $1,200 to $2,500 to the cost of the job.

 

Please contact the WSSC Regulatory Services Group for clarification.



 Attached was a PDF file That I can't copy and paste here because I don't know how. But it listed section 504.2.9 and table 504.3 and the 7 times area rule. My gut feeling is they are trying to get rid of 80% furnaces all together

Tim McElwain

Thanks Bob for defining

WSSC, I had looked at there information about modifications but could not find anything about chimneys. I will have to look again. I wish unclejohn could download the pdf file so  could see just what they are modifying.

Tim McElwain

This is nothing new

 has been in NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code and IFGC for several years now. It restricts the use of exposed or actually called Exterior Masonry Chimneys in certain climate zones. These are defined by Figure B-19 in the code book. The Maryland area is in zone as defined by table 504.3 (6b) as the 5 degree to 16 degree zone which will not allow the chimney to be used unless as a minimum it is 10 feet high with an internal area of 113 square inches and input to the chimney is 430,000 BTU's. THIS IS NOTHING NEW AND IT IS NOT A CHANGE TO THE CODE IT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR QUITE A WHILE. ALL WSSC IS DOING IS LETTING IT BE KNOWN THAT IT IS GOING TO BE ENFORCED.

HERE IS THE ARTICLE FROM WSSC:



Strict Enforcement of Outside Chimney Venting Restrictions

 

In most applications where space heating appliance(s) [furnaces and boilers] are served by an "outside" masonry chimney, the chimney will require the installation of a listed liner when any of the existing appliances served by the chimney are replaced. According to the sizing charts contained in the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC), outside chimneys cannot be utilized "as is" unless a minimum of 300 - 400 Thousand Btu's are connected.

 

A water heater(s) may be connected to an outside chimney providing two conditions are met:

1.) There is not a space heating appliance connected;

 

2.) The internal cross sectional area of the chimney does not exceed seven (7) times the area of the smallest connected draft hood.

 

Refer to 2012 IFGC code section 504.2.9 and Tables 504.2(3) & 504.2(6) for single appliance venting; refer to code section504.3.20 and Tables 504.3(6a), 504.3(7a) & 504.3(6b), 504,3(7b) for multi appliance venting.

 

These IFGC code sections and tables have priority over less restrictive manufacturers installation instructions including those touted as  having "chimney friendly”alternatives.

 

Important Safety Message- Be sure to remove all accumulations, each and every time, from the base of chimneys and vents (dirt pockets), prior to placing any equipment into service. This applies to all inside and outside chimneys, which qualify for continued use, as well as metal vent systems. Always check the integrity of the whole venting system!





This is a good thing as there are really too many problems now with appliances which can not generate enough Delta T temperature difference and lack of height along with exposure on three sides to the chimney. They will just not have adequate draft to be safe.



I do not think anyone is trying to get rid of equipment, they are coming to the realization that chimneys which once experienced 30 to 40% of the heat generated as flue loss when now reduced to 15 % or less will not operate.