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Cold day

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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Could you possibly

    sacrifice cutting 2 holes just to get a look at the supply tee and return tee to one manifold? Maybe in an unobtrusive location?



    Harvey
  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    As soon as

    I can figure out how to patch my concrete walls and not have the wife yell at me in the process.



    Actually, thinking about it I may be able to see the first floor return-side tee's in the crawlspace since the returns are all down through the floor. I am getting excited at what the weekend brings.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    So this is what you clocked your system at?

    18 btu/sq ft/hr?



    If so, you could be shy BTU's. Need to pump up the BTU volume. Have to stay within the manufacturers recommendations.



    Based on your comment about not being able to maintain when OSA drops below 30, this makes perfect sense. Same for the half hot radiators.



    Make certain your burner tech does a combustion analysis before AND after adjustments, and keep a copy for your records, and DON'T let them tell you it is not necessary.



    Not sure where Dan Foley lives in VA., but if he is available (Foley Mechanical Inc) I guarantee you good service.



    ME

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  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Not all radiator valves are a 100% stop...

    If the handles spin and never stop, it is not a full stop valve. If the handle and stem rise and fall when opening and closing and do stop, it is a positive shut off valve.



    Those that spin and spin actually have an 1/8" hole drilled through their cylinder to provide "Freeze protection".



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    I think

    Foley Mechanical is near DC which is a bit too far (4 hours).



    As soon as I can convince someone to do a combustion analysis (maybe the guy I talked to today, I tried to explain that to the guy the warranty folks sent out and he wasn't hearing me).
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Yeah, too far...

    He's in Lorton, and is also extremely busy based on a conversation with him recently.



    ME

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  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    The valves

    turn 90 degrees and hard stop at both ends. Not sure if they fully shut off flow or not without taking the rads off them
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Non rising stem...

    Those are not a positive stop, and are the ones I mentioned with the hole in the gate.



    Also, in looking at the picture above closer, I did notice that the second riser from the left has a bypass around the bottom radiator, and the ones on the far left are S&R connected to the same main, just like you drew. Whooda thunk… Not sure exactly how that would work, but it is shown, so your drawing might be more correct than I think.



    ME

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  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Look closely at the picture above...

    It is piped they way you drew it. Your drawing might not be that far off as I originally thought. As I look at this design in my minds eye, the only way I can see it working is the hot water more buoyant water is seeking the highest level. This would explain why the lower floors feel cooler than the upper floors, and I am not sure, short of a complete repipe, which I doubt you want to do, how you'd "fix" it.



    I learned something new today!



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Been curious about those fittings

    since he first posted the diagram http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/149618/Boiler-Bypass#p1326676
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Indirect

    If this turns out to be an overhead system, then you should look to another source to heat your domestic. Trying to set it up to pump an indirect could create problems. A good instantaneous (on demand) would work and should be close in cost.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Re-piping?

    Mark,

    Re-piping may become a viable option. Especially a home run system piped with pex-al-pex and manifolds.



    What if the old pipes are so rough and corroded that it's reached the point of hindering hindering flow? I would certainly try pumping gently first, as well as correcting any obvious issues, but it could come to that? Your thoughts?



    Maybe Dan could chime in too.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Re-Pipe

    At the very least I'd be re-piping the boiler and putting the pump on the supply header, and removing the attic expansion tank and putting a new- "pre-charged" tank on the supply header before the pump location with CW feeder attached to the exp. tank location. Or replace the boiler.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Pic from Previous Post

    The linked pic from your previous thread shows a bladder expansion tank, air scoop and flow check near the boiler that obviously wasn't part of the original piping.



    Again, if this is an overhead gravity system, then that flow check doesn't belong in there. Flow checks serve two purposes: preventing flow from a parallel zone and preventing gravity flow. Considering you don't have a parallel zone, and that this looks like some type of gravity system, it should not be there. All of this was probably added when the circ was. Some folks only know how to add the modern parts they're accustomed to using, and in so doing, they can really mess up an old system like this. This is still assuming you have an overhead system.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Bob,

    I agree. If piped the way it is shown and redrawn, in order for it to work perfectly right, he could (if possible and accessible ) plumb things in parallel branches, reverse return, and on those branches that look like a one pipe system where the S+R are connected to the same main, install some sort of valve between the tees, or insert a diverting fitting. Seems like a Whole lot of work, and IF a major remodel is in his plans, throw this work on top of his other plans, or as you said, home run the whole shebang, throw TRVs at it and replace the heat source with a newer, properly sized unit, a,long with a DCECM smart pump.



    Short of that, I am not sure what else we can recommend. Maybe leaving the upper floors as is, giving them a separate stat for those floors, and a dedicated pump, and then recipe the lower cooler levels with PEX and also set them up with their own pump and either TRVs or a zone pump, and or a stat, or both.



    We really must find out EXACTLY how it is truly piped, and then proceed from there. May be best to do nothing but increase the firing rate and try and get it as close to the original configuration as possible, including the use of gravity....



    Regarding pipe internal condition, on the ones I've had the opportunity to disassemble, the pipes weren't in as bad a condition as one would have thought they'd be for an open loop system. The closer you are to the attic expansion tank, the higher the corrosion, but for the most part, not bad at all. But those were truly gravity circ systems. I think throwing a pump into the mix is going to spread the corrosion love.



    ME

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  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    A Fun day

    I had the pleasure of crawling through my attic and crawlspace and taking pictures of what I could. Also, I redid the drawing to more accurately reflect the layout of the system (there are 2 questionable spots as they are behind walls, one being where the kitchen radiator was removed and the other being marked with a question mark on the drawing).



    Drawing is the attached pdf, all the pics are in my web album linked below:



    https://plus.google.com/photos/103607511539264532505/albums/5981094904224189953



    Hope this solves a lot of questions.



    PS I have no idea what was originally on the top of the tee fitting on the main supply in the attic, but it has been long removed and capped off. I'm guessing either an expansion tank or air vent....
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Overhead system

    Frank,

    It sure looks to me like an overhead system. The Tees look like standard 300# Tees from that era, but if the drops are piped so that they must pass through a radiator(s) without bypassing it, then a diverter Tee would not have been required.



    Considering also that the house could have been piped by a steamfitter from the navy yard and it looks even more apparent that it's an overhead.



    A couple of questions:

    1. What's the pressure on the boiler when cold?

    2. Have you tried bleeding air from the Tee in the attic where the radiator key is?



    Air removal from this type of system is crucial.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    The Cold Pressure

    is just over 10 PSI, looks to be 12 or 13 on the tridicator.



    No, I have not tried to bleed out that tee as I just found it today..:)
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    I'm headed out...

    To church. I'll check back later.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    The water in the top of the

    system is undoubtedly below atmospheric pressure allowing air introduction and the water to boil at lower temperature.



    What brand/model expansion tank do you have?

    We better make sure it is big enough before we turn up the pressure and remove the air. Otherwise you will end up with a water mess.



    Harvey
  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    My expansion tank

    is an Extrol EX-30 and according to the Amtrol spec sheet is too small for the system. They spec out an EX-60. I am planning on making the switch in the coming weeks when the tax man send me my check.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    edited February 2014
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    Good

    Once you get the tank you should probably precharge the air pressure to about 15psi. Then you need to raise the system pressure to 16-17psi. This can usually be accomplished by adjusting the PRV (pressure reducing valve) aka, fill valve. Once you have that in place, you can bleed all the air out of the system using the radiator bleed valve that is screwed into that tee in attic. Also bleed all radiators. You should also then move the circulator to the supply side, pumping away from the expansion tank.



    Get somebody qualified in, and have them readjust the gas burner. Because of the high thermal mass connected to the system and no means of boiler protection, I would have the burner adjusted to a higher BTU output than the building actually requires. This is to prevent the system thermostat from becoming satisfied while the system water temperature is still low enough to cause flue gas condensation. 

    What hurts the heat exchanger the most is when the boiler turns off while in condensing mode. If the boiler gets hot enough to vaporize and dry the moisture off of the heat exchanger before turning off, there will be minimal corrosion damage.



    Finally, with all that accomplished go through the house and balance all the radiators to your desired comfort. That can be accomplished by incrementally adjusting the radiator valves with a 24hr waiting period between adjustments.



    While there are still a lot a lot of upgrades that are worth considering, this should get you warm for the least amount of dinero.

    AND! Insulate thos pipes in the attic.



    Enjoy

    Harvey
  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    The pipes

    had asbestos insulation on them before we bought the house, and since it was in good condition I asked the seller to encapsulate the insulation. Instead, he removed it (hopefully a qualified removal company did, but looking at the invoice I doubt it) so now I get to go buy pipe insulation and install it....fun.



    The pipes in the crawl are still insulated with the asbestos stuff, and it's in rough shape but gonna be awhile before I can pay to have that addresses.



    As far as the burner, I have talked to two local guys about servicing it so it's back up to it's rated output, and both have said the wayne burners aren't worth servicing, which leads me to start thinking about trying to take it off the boiler and clean it myself, which I'm not sure I'm ready to attempt, and then of course is the Home Warranty folks who won't listen to a word I say......
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    I agree with everything Harvey said...

    Parallel direct return, balance-able via valves.



    As I previously said, you need to crank up the BTU's as well, and I'd also suggest a negative pressure blower door test to find and quash any excess infiltration your home might have.



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    Should I

    remove the flow control valve when I replace the expansion tank and air vent? I'll have the pipe open there anyway to move the circulator.

    If not, does the circulator go on the upstream or downstream side fo the flow valve?
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    No...

    Due to the fact that your boiler is staying constantly hot for the DHW calls, you MUST leave the flow check there.



    Moving the pump so it pumps away from the expansion and preferably the boiler, will eliminate the need for manual air removal. Keep the flow check on the supply side, down stream of the circulator.



    Eventually, when you upgrade your system and get rid of the immersed coil DHW factor in favor of a reverse indirect or other means of heating DHW, then and only then will you be able to eliminate the pressure drop associated with the flow check valve.



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
    edited February 2014
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    Sounds good

    Have another question at the bottom.
  • FWDixon
    FWDixon Member Posts: 78
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    Re: Air supply

    I have a bathroom off the kitchen right next to the utility room. The door was originally the back door (led to a porch that is now the 3/4 bath). When the blower on the burner turns on, I can hear the bathroom door move slightly, which seems to indicate the blower is pulling air from inside the house through the utility room door (which would be reasonable as it is far less air tight then the door leading outside from the other end of the utility room).

    Should I also see about getting an air flow test on that room and make sure there is enough supply air for the boiler?

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