Logamatic 2107 or Tekmar 260 ?

pickncrew

Planning stages for installing a Buderus G115 4-section oil-fired Reillo burner, 2 zone + and indirect water heater. Without considering price, I am wondering if I should go with the Logamatic or Tekmar controller? I want to have outdoor reset and I know both will work but wondering if one is favored over the other.



Also, this might be a dumb question but will I need a Honeywell Aquastat if I put in the Logamatic? I know if I put in the Tekmar I do.



Thank you for any feedback...

R Mannino

Aquastat

You don't need an aquastat if you use a Logamatic.

Ironman

Depends on What You Want

Both will give you outdoor reset. The 2107 has a lot more features, including control of an indirect, nite setback of the heating curve, vacation settings, etc. It also has expansion modules available for radiant mixing and solar. It also costs more.



The 2107 is NOT an on demand control like the Tekmar which means it will seek to maintain a minimum water temp in the boiler. Americans have a hard time grasping how that can be more economical.

R Mannino

Excellent Point Ironman

The Logamatic is not a cold start control, but can be more economical.

Eastman

hard time

How can that be more economical? I know nothing of the Logomatic.

Ironman

How?

I said we Americans have a hard time grasping it and you're confirming it.



It would help if you understand that Buderus approaches it from "a total system concept" which is how it should be with any system.



Buderus uses a specially blended cast iron which is actually flexible. This allows their boiler to operate at much lower temp than conventional C.I. boilers - 104* minimum to be exact. They have no issues with thermal shock or condensation at that temp. The 2107 will maintain that as it's minimum temp, thus making the boiler "warm start". Ask some of the oil pro's on here about the difference in efficiency and boiler cleanliness that they see first hand between a warm start boiler vs a cold start one.



The Germans test and measure everything forwards, backwards, side ways, inside and out fifteen zillion times over before they put it into production. They know what works. Their C.I boilers with that control have been well proved in Europe to be the most economical setup.



If fact, my Buderus rep whose been selling that combination for about twenty years, personally guarantees me that boiler and control will save 40% when replacing any conventional oil boiler. I've never been able to prove him wrong. And, he knows the 2107 so well that he can tell you how to program, diagnose or adjusted it while he's driving down I 95 on the phone with you.



Whether we understand it or not, you can't argue with a proven track record.



If you more info, contact Buderus engineering and let them explain it.

pickncrew

Thank you - going with 2107

Thank you for your comments. I read positive comments about both products but do not mind spending a few hundred bucks more and will go with the 2107. I wasn't sure if the Buderus 2107 controller was all promotional hype or not. One thing I've seen several places is that the 2107 may be more sensitive to power, so maybe I can wire it to a UPS battery for stability and protection, especially if I am running the generator when power is out. I like the Buderus manual… it seems clear. It seems there are knowledgeable Buderus service reps in my area if I run into trouble or during setup.

SWEI

Power Conditioning

The overwhelming majority of UPS systems smaller than about 15 kVA do NOT provide any real power conditioning.  Garbage in = garbage out, generators definitely included.



Real power conditioning for an AC line requires a minimum of several pounds of iron and copper -- stuff that is not inexpensive to make or ship, and therefore not something you will find at your local consumer electronics or computer shop.  The good news is that they don't wear out and are widely available on the secondary market for a fraction of their original purchase price.  e.g. http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=oneac+power+conditioner

pickncrew

power

Thank you for that! Really appreciate it..

SWEI

There are other brands

as well as a few small UPS models with built-in power conditioning.  Generally speaking quality is proportional to weight (exclusive of batteries in the case of a UPS.)  A true double conversion online UPS can break these rules, but even those need some burly inductors in order to keep their internal electronics safe.



The prevalence of BS marketing-speak using the term "power conditioner" is truly unfortunate.  A few minutes with a 'scope in the hands of a competent electronics tech or engineer will clearly separate the wheat from the chaff, and there is a LOT of big-name chaff out there.

 

Plmb802

2107

Go for the logistic,very simple to install, very user friendly.

Gordan

So...

According to this article, that may not offer all the protection one might desire?



https://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr016.pdf

SWEI

Power conditioning

is different than surge or TVSS protection.  By far the best place for a TVSS is at the service entry, connected via a short, low impedance path to a good earth ground.  Additional TVSS protection, if used, should be installed at potential sources of noise as well as at sensitive equipment.  Good power supply designs include onboard surge suppression (usually MOVs, sometimes transient diodes or gas discharge tubes) and the entire device will be tested to at least 6kV.



The combination of an isolation transformer with a capacitor creates a low-pass filter which simultaneously prevents HF noise from getting in (to the equipment being protected) and out (from the HF current spikes created by a switch-mode power supply.)  It will also "round off" the modified squarewaves generated by UPS inverters -- at the expense of a small efficiency loss (the extra energy is converted to heat and/or noise.)



Most "SPD with low pass filter" designs place an inductor in series with the line.  The size of that inductor is limited by cost, which has the effect of presenting a high source impedance to the load, which will actually increase line noise.

Gordan

So...

I've had two fried MCBAs, two fried induction blowers, and one fried Alpha on my system (TT PS-60), not to mention sundry other appliances, as a result of overbuilt high voltage lines falling on the domestic voltage lines on two separate occasions. This would be called a temporary overvoltage (TOV) as distinct from a transient voltage surge or line noise; the duration and energy in an event like this is sufficient to blow MOVs in a shunt mode TVSS, and TVSS manufacturers, in fact, do not claim to protect against this kind of event. Since an isolation transformer has 1:1 windings and low impedance, and would simply pass on the higher voltage, it would seem to, alone, be insufficient for handling this type of event. Since the utility can claim an act of god and does not bear the cost of these events, they don't have the appropriate incentive to ensure that these types of highly predictable and destructive overvoltage events are not actively fostered by their engineering practices.



For some reason that is a mystery to me, a panel-mounted TVSS is not allowed to interrupt service in case of a sustained dangerous event that exceeds its protective ability. So you're left with a point-of-use device with fusing that disconnects the line from the outlet in the case of TVSS failure. Of course, not everything can be plugged into a point-of-use device.

SWEI

TOV

Act of God, or perhaps just some engineering oversights in the design phase?



Either way, you have a challenge on your hands.  I agree that an isolation transformer (or any noise filter, really) will do almost nothing to help.



Are these TOV events sending 12+ kV down the secondary lines?  North American load centers are design to arc over around 6 kV, which should trip the main.  An SOV or MOV should absorb the initial pulse before that happens.  If it's small overvoltage, a tap-switching design (Tripp-Lite quotes "brownouts to 175V and overvoltages to 281V")  might help.

Big Ed_4

Sounds like.......

.....Charley Always out there

Big Ed_4

And....

.... Looks good on the boiler