Electric heat, or infra-red

Gordy

Yes

That one

masterofnone

energy supplier option?

IF you have an option to choose another energy supplier you should be able to lower your per kwh price. I hadn't been paying attention to our energy bill details until recently seeing our bill spike. Our fixed rate had transitioned to a variable rate of about 8.5 cents per kwh (at the worst time of year)! My elderly mother moved into our home last fall and we supplement the radiant heat in her room with an electric oil filled radiator. With that, our kwh usage went up about 25%. Here in Central N.Y. we have numerous ESCO choices for electric and nat. gas. The states public service commission website shows all the current rates. A few phone calls (with some patience) and we are switched to 5.9 cents at a fixed rate. Here we can have different suppliers for our electric and nat. gas. also. You may not have an option but if you do it may be worth looking into.

MikeG

UL approved

Gordy,

I wonder if that adaptor is UL approved. I suppose anyone can market anything. Put on the adaptor for a 20 amp 120v appliance on a 15 amp wire circuit and outlet... Keeps tripping the 15 amp breaker so I put in a bigger breaker and I wonder why I burn my house down. I know any product can be used in a dangerous and unapproved manner, but you would think a large corporation would not sell something that is in direct conflict with good practice and codes. A lot of people use their advice as gospel which just compounds the problem. Just my opinion.

Gordy

Mike

Exactly Mike,



Not a huge portion of homeowners understand how their wiring is suppose to work in their home.



One scenario would be if your wiring is 12/3 or 12/2 with 20 amp breaker. Outlets are rated 15 amp (without the rotated slot) in using that adapter you could make the outlet fail causing a fire, or burn up the in this case kill-a-watt.



A worse scenario would be 14/3 or 14/2 circuit or in any portion of the circuit with 15 amp outlet, and 20 amp breaker that someone had enough knowledge to switch out but not the understanding of the implications. Then there are multiple points of failure in wiring, outlet etc.



I sure would not produce such an adapter, I'm sure there is do, and donts in the literature.

Chewy

Ok - I finally checked the plate

There isn't one. So I looked at the manual. It says : Power consumption 1500w



What does that mean?

Mark N

Kilowatts

1500 watts is equal to 1.5 kilowatts. So of every hour of continuous use it will use 1.5 kilowatt hours of electricity. That is most likely it's power consumption at its highest setting.

Gordy

It means

For every hour that heater is on it uses 1.5 kW. So if your rate costs .10 cents a kilowatt. It costs 15 cents an hour to run.



So,if you use it for 24 hours it costs 3.60 a day.

If you use it 6 hours a day that's .90 cents or 27.00 a month.

If there is only an on off setting. If there are lower settings naturally it will use less. That rating may be maximum output.

Chewy

1.5 x 8.2910?

My charge, according to the bill, is 8.2910. So I times that by 1.5, and get 12.43. I'm not paying $12.43 an hour to use this thing, am I? Or am I paying 12 cents an hour.

MikeG

Electric usage

If you ran that heater for one hour it would use 1.5 kilowatt ( KWh) hours of electricity which is how electricity is sold.. Where I live I pay $0.12 a KWH. In that scenario it would cost me $0.18 for that hour. As others have said do the math. For every hour of run time it will cost you 1.5 times your KWH rate. The kill a watt meter if you use one should give you the basic run time and usage. Some models also will also give you ,cost info if you program it and store the data. That heater is drawing 12.5 amps and if it is running for an extended time ideally it should be on it's own circuit if the circuit is 15 amps. Portable electric heaters unless very large are usually used for heating a small area or a person. Some of the pros and cons of the different types were discussed earlier in the thread.

Mark N

Grade school math

Read Gordy's reply.

Harvey Ramer

Since this has turned

into a thread about space heaters, I have a stark warning I wish to post for all the viewers. The photo I have attached is of a receptacle that was ready to burst into flames at any minute. The electrical wires around the screw lugs were glowing red hot. This was caused by an electric space heater. The space heater wasn't plugged into this receptacle. This receptacle was in the circuit upstream of where the space heater was plugged in. The damage started because of slightly loose connections.



How would you feel if I had taken that receptacle out of your house?



The people who owned this house received a grim warning and instructions on how to prevent this from happening.



I'm not saying that nobody should use space heaters. I'm saying under no circumstance should they be left unattended.



Look at that receptacle again and think about what that would mean in your life!



Harvey

Gordy

To find

Total cost per KWH take your total monthly bill, and divide into total KWH used that month.



This will give you cost after all incurred fees. Usually the bill only states cost charge per KWH and then adds all taxes etc after.



Honestly if your base board zones are set up by certain zones, or areas ( multiple thermostats) you would be better served using what you have if the base boards are set up as to areas you are in can be run.



Otherwise an oil filled radiator type electric heater will give you far better comfort in a room than an infra red type heater for the same cost to operate. The radiator style heats the air not just objects or your person.

Gordy

Nice post Harvey

Great addition to the thread!

Chewy

WOW!

That's horrible, Harvey!!



Ok, so my heater is costing me $2.98 per day.



Now the thing is - is that cheaper than the baseboard heat! Probably not, right?



Check this out:

http://www.citytrf.net/costs_calculator.htm



I know its easy enough to figure out, but that's pretty cool.

Gordy

Gotta ask yourself

For the cost to operate that heater. Is the comfort there compared to what you have in place?



That's 90 bucks a month!



Many people are getting caught up in trying to save money on their heating costs this year do to the weather. Spot heating in the end really reduces comfort, increases operating cost, and increases a potentially hazardous condition.





In the end a btu needed is a btu used. And a therm, KW, gal of fuel to make it is still needed to get you to a comfort level.

SWEI

"Upgrading" outlets

Caused enough problems here in New Mexico that they changed the requirements:



(2)    Section 210.19 Conductors - Minimum ampacity and size. See this section of the NEC and add the following to subsection (A) Branch circuits not more than 600 volts. (1) General: see this section of the NEC and add: conductors for branch circuits shall be sized to prevent excessive voltage drop. Conductors of 15 ampere 120V branch circuits supplying general-purpose receptacle outlets shall be not less than 12 AWG.



I think that was actually a good idea.

Chewy

Comfort level is ok....

Its still a little tiny bit cold with that infra-red heater on instead of the baseboard, but it didn't matter if we were saving money.



Anyone know the average cost it to run a baseboard heater? How many watts does it run on? This way I can figure out which is more cost effective.

Gordy

Harvey's post

Is probably due to an overloaded circuit, and the wiring got hot, and cooled multiple times creating a loose arcing connection. Or a sloppy outlet installation. Possibly aluminum wiring.

SWEI

Upstream outlets

wired handyman-style, with the power fed through the outlet rather than using pigtails?



They've clamped down on this with regard to ground and neutrals in recent code editions, but the hot wire can still be daisy-chained.

Gordy

Same info, and math

Applies Chewy.

Chewy

I know same math applies....

But wondering how many watts my baseboard runs at. I know there is no way to test it, or a way that I would want to.... But anyone know? Its an old home, probably built in 1970. So what wattage do old baseboard heaters run at? Not looking for exact number of course.

Harvey Ramer

It was

12 AWG copper wiring. The power fed through the receptacle which is not a good way to do it but, that's not the point. How many houses are wired this way? Do you know how your receptacles are wired.



If you must use space heaters. Do not leave them unattended, period!



Harvey

Harvey Ramer

Chewy

I think we all agree on this. Use your electric baseboard. If you think it costs to much, install a heating system that has a lower operating cost.



Space heaters are no way to heat a house.



Harvey

Chewy

Thanks for the help

Doing more research I see that baseboard heaters usually run 225 watts per foot. My baseboard heater is 10 feet! Meaning, 2250 watts, meaning $4.48 or so to run per day, compared to the $2.98 per day. Interesting.



Well, again, everyone - thank you so much for the information. I gained quite a bit of experience out of this topic. You guys are the best.

Mark N

Electric Baseboards

I did a quick search and the electric baseboards I found were 6ft long and were 1500 watts. Add up the total length of your baseboard and that might give you a ballpark figure. Also, make sure of your cost per kilowatt hour. Divide how much your total electric bill was by the total amount of kilowatt hours used. My bill is broken down into a Service Charge, a Delivery Charge, and a Commodity Charge. All together I pay 18 cents a kilowatt hour. The charge just for the electricity is 8 cents a kilowatt hour.

Gordy

Chewy

Do understand that the base boards do not run 24/7 so your ball park is off.



Unless not enough was installed for the heat load, or you dip way down below what the normal heat load was calculated for the sizing of the baseboard.



Also understand that 10 foot of base board is giving you more btus to heat with than your space heater. The base board if numbers are right is giving about 7500 btus compared to the space heater that gives about 5100 btus.

Like Harvey said evaluate a cheaper heat plant more than likely of an NG type of fuel source.

Gordy

18 cent KW

Yikes!

Chewy

oh great, something else to confuse me

BTUs?!?!?



I forgot about the baseboard not running 24/7. So now how in the hell am I supposed to figure this out. All I want to do is heat this ONE ROOM and see what is cheaper. I can't afford a new heating system, hence the penny pinching with this new heat source.



So, with a 1500w heater running 24/7, or a 2250 watt 10 foot baseboard heater running - I don't know, when does it go on? When does it go off? And now BTUs? UGH! I'm not trying to use this heater to heat the house. JUST ONE ROOM - the living room.

Gordy

I'll make this easy

Trust me on this.



Both heaters are electric right?



When both heaters are on they are using electricity right?



So the both cost the same to operate watt for watt.



The bigger heater(base board) is going to heat the space quicker, and be on probably less than the infra red space heater.



Use the base board. It will be more comfortable.



Now if we were comparing different types of heat sources gas, oil, kerosene, wood then it's worth doing some calculations. Your just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Chewy

DEAL

infra-red heater just switched off. For good.



Baseboard heater now switched on to 70.



Thank you.

Gordy

One last thing

I should have emphasized this before. Make sure your base board is not blocked by furniture, or carpeting near the bottom opening. They depend on convection to operate efficiently. So if you block air from circulating through the bottom of the base board, and the top it will take longer to do its job.

Chewy

Furniture is away....

from the wall. Most of the baseboard heater is exposed.



Thanks again.