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Electric heat, or infra-red

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Chewy
Chewy Member Posts: 23
in THE MAIN WALL
I have a huge dilemma. I bought an infra-red heater to help with heating costs, now that I am using it, my electric bill went up quite a bit - so much in fact that its the highest it ever was. I keep track of my heating bills on a month to month basis for the past 15 years (yeah, I know, a bit OCD). Well, I would like to know if the heater is causing the cost, or if its the really cold winter. Here's how my arrangement is setup.



My living room is where the infra-red heater is. The living room is really really small (24 foot by 12 foot?). We have a heavy blanket that covers the opening between the living room and dining room so that the heat is kept in the living room. The other rooms we have the electric baseboard heat off (except the bedrooms which are only at 60). We also have the living room baseboard heat at 60 on the thermostat.



The infrared heater is rated to cover 300 sq. ft. It is constantly running.



What I am wondering is why my heating bill is over $100 more per month! Is it because it is a very cold winter? If so, why would that matter? Is there any way to figure out if it would be cheaper to run the baseboard heat instead? Like, maybe something listed on my heating bill?



Please save me money! :)
«1

Comments

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Hi Chewy

    Your Infared Heater has about the same operating cost as the electric baseboard. If you want to save on your electric heating cost you should spot-heat. Just keep certain areas warm. Don't turn the other areas completely off though. you don't want any pipes to freeze.



    Other than that, you will just have to accept what Mother Nature throws at us. The colder it is outside the more you will pay for heat. Sorry.



    Harvey
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    So... Is it costing us more?

    Harvey, Thank you so much for the quick response! I was amazed to see a reply so quickly.



    So, should we shut off the infra-red heater? Is that what is costing us more? Or if we shut it off and turn up the living room heat to 70, will it be cheaper?



    I know about the other rooms and not turning it off completely. I've been doing that for 15 years, turning it really low (like at 50) because 90% of our time is spent in our living room. So, shut off the infra-red, and turn up the baseboard to 70 instead of 60?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    edited February 2014
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    How

    big is your house and how much are your electric bills and how much do you pay per KWH?



    The Infared Heater you can turn on or off, whatever you prefer. Not going to make much of a difference.



    Harvey
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    And

    when did you notice the electric bill increase?



    Harvey
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Every month it gets higher....

    Every single month the bill has been getting higher. Since its not 100% accurate (sometimes they take their time to read the meter), its hard to tell. But since the heater has been running its been going up, but then again its been getting colder. The biggest difference was the past 2 months when the bill was the highest. The kwh price is 8.2910 cents. Total average kwh is 18,589.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    What is the

    KW usage per month? As close as you can get.



    Harvey
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Average says...

    The average usage per month is 1,549 (right from the bill)
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    That,s

    About $128 a month. Not very bad,



    Harvey
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited February 2014
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    Comparing costs

    The past couple months have been abnormally cold in much of the central and northeastern US.  In order to make an informed comparison, you need to compare kWH per degree-day.  Download daily data from the nearest weather station on http://www.degreedays.net/ and then separate according to your meter reading dates.  Divide total kWH by total degree-days (65F base is good enough.)  If that number changes, you have gained or lost efficiency (unless you changed the indoor setpoint.)



    Insulation is the gift that keeps on giving.  Consider investing in some, and perhaps exploring other heat sources, including a modern VRF heat pump.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Uh.... way off

    My current bill is $353. Last year at this time it was $246. Year before $235. Year before $243. Year before $279....



    So, basically, your saying it really wont matter if I turn it off? Its not costing us more?
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    And thank you!

    Thank you SWEI! I will look into that too. I really need to see if this thing is costing us more!
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    The

    $128 a month is a yearly average. I had already accounted for the fact that you are heating with electric resistance heat.



    Looking at your current bill and the bills for years prior, It appears normal to me. This winter has been much colder. Your electric heat consumption is directly related to the outdoor temperature.



    Swei made a good suggestion about the VRF/VRV heat pump. #minisplit #ductless heat pump



    That would really slash your energy consumption.





    Harvey
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Ok then.... THANK YOU BOTH

    Thank you both, very much. I guess I will continue to use both that heater, and keep the electric heat at 60. I wonder what it would be without that infra-red heater!
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Btu is a btu

    The infra red heater is like radiant heating in that it heats objects. Your electric baseboards work by convection heating the air, and causing circulation by pulling cooler air through the bottom of the base board, and heating it. The resulting heated air rises, and so the circulation goes.



    You need to do the heating degree day comparison as SWEI posted to get a grip on the costs. The infra red may be costing you more on that with the other rooms base boards turned off it's doing more work. It's all electric one method is not cheaper to run than the other. Your just seeing a higher bill because it's colder.
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
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    Electric Heat

    You state that you have been keeping track of your heating bills for the past 15 years. Since you have electric heat I would assume that everything in your house is electric, meaning the stove, hot water heater, clothes dryer, refrigerator, and freezer. Do you factor out how much electricity it takes to run these appliances out of your electric bill to determine your heating bill? What is the wattage rating of the infrared heater? What is the wattage rating of the electric baseboard in your living room? Which ever is less will be less expensive to run.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    edited February 2014
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    Do the math...

    For example, and you will need to find and substitute your owOn numbers.



    My radiant windows in my mountain home pull 1,000 watts .



    If they stay on 24/7, then they consume 1,000 X 24 X 30 = 720,000 watts per month.



    720,000 divided by 1,000 to convert to KWH = 720 KWH for the radiant window heaters.



    Here in Coldorado, I am paying $0.10 per KWH, so my monthly cost for the radiant windows is $72.00 per month if the windows stay on full time.



    Now as it pertains to operation, as Gordy pointed out, the IR heater is heating mass. If undersized, it could be a losing proposition at times. Once all the mass is charged up and the Mean Radiant Temperature is affected, that room should be considerably more comfortable than the rooms with the convectors in them for a given air temperature.



    Typically, a radiant system with an air temp of 68 F "feels like" a convective system at 72 F if infiltration is low. If infiltration is high, it doesn't matter what you have, you will not be comfortable.



    Conservation first give the best bang for the buck.



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Mark N

    I wish I knew what the rating of my baseboard heater is. I guess there is no way to tell.



    Well, I am very impressed at all the responses. Thanks everyone. I guess there really is not a 100% way of finding out what is causing the rise in price. Cold weather, using the dryer more (I think the wife does this a lot more than last year - I know that causes a big increase).



    I was just hoping for a simple answer, but there are too many factors. Even if I turn off the infra-red and turn up the baseboard heat, maybe that month the electric company will estimate it differently and then I will think that;s what the problem is, even though it may be saving me money by having that on.



    So now the question is - to leave it on or switch it off. Sigh....
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    I propose that

    a small hot-surface infared heater (space heater), by their very nature induce enough convection to overshadow the desired effects of radiant transfer. Hence little difference in comfort or energy consumption.



    Harvey
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
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    Electric Usage

    Where I live they read the meter every month. Learn to read the meter yourself, it is very simple. Keep a daily, or weekly, or monthly log book of your reading. Then you know your actual usage.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    But where is that electric going?

    is there something I can add to the heater that tells how much energy its using? Would that help?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Estimation

    The electric company uses last years consumption to estimate this years usage as to what ever months correlate.



    What happens in this type of a heating season with more heating degree days the estimate falls way short. Then when the reading comes in that month makes up for any short fall of the prior estimated month. This could be confusing things also.



    If your usage patterns have been the same as always then you can bank on the colder than normal conditions are causing your increase.



    Yes the dryer will bump things up a bit an electric dryer uses up around 5KW .



    Look at the circuit breaker for your base board if it's 20 amp single pole breaker it can use as much as 2400 watts that's the capacity of the breaker 120Volts x 20 Amps= 2400 watts.



    If it's a double pole breaker then it's 240 Volts x 20 Amps= 4800 watts.



    Your breaker size may be bigger depending on how many base board sections are on a circuit.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Kill a watt

    If it's 120 volt heater then you can by a kill a watt meter plugs into the wall, and heater plugs into that. There's a window that tells how many watts appliance is using, and how many hours it was on, and I believe total usage for 24 hour period. 20 bucks.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Oooh.... that sounds good

    But.... it costs $20 to run for 24 hours?



    Would that give me more information as to what the heater is costing me to run?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Depends

    On the size Harvey., and the reflective design. If it's concentrated so you have to sit in front of it to gain any benefit then it's not going to do much for MRT.



    It's not going to heat much air either.



    Ever sit in a ice shanti ice fishing with one of those little Coleman infra red propane heater? They don't do much to heat the shanti basically it's just heating you.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    20 dollars

    To buy the meter. Then you can check any 120 volt appliance consumption.

    http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=kill+watt+meter&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=34205999507&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15211824531703945714&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_jly2vfj4g_b
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Watts?

    How many watts is the infra red heater?
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    You people are great!

    I had no idea I would get this many responses and active participants. Thank you!



    Gordy--> So this will tell me how much its costing, basically, to the exact amount?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Math

    Still involved Chewy.



    The meter will tell you how many kilowatts you used in 24 hours or what ever time frame.

    Then you have to multiply the kilowatts by your electric rate.



    So if you use 10 kilowatts in 24 hours, and your rate after all fees on the bill is 10 cents a kilowatt then your heater costed you 1.00 to run. One kilowatt is 1000 watts.



    If you know the wattage of the heater you can do the math if you keep track of the usage time unless it has multiple settings.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Its only $20....

    I am considering buying this just to see what it costs to run. I have the exact amount what the electric company charges. Thanks! I will definitely buy one.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    A couple of things...

    ALL electric appliances sold in the US are required to have all power consuming data permanently affixed to the appliance . ( nomenclature plate).



    I LOVE my Kill-a-watt meter, but it's only good for up to a 15 amp draw if memory serves me correctly.



    Check your plate and grab a calculator.



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Mark is correcta

    15 amps draw so check your heater.



    If you can't find it which like Mark said should be some where on the heater. If new look in the paper work that came with the heater.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    I disagree Harv...

    With radiant heat, it doesn't become "heat" in the form that our bodies can sense it until it strikes a solid object. The energy waves pass through the air without affecting air temperature at 186,000 miles per second.



    The KEY advantage of radiant heating and cooling is that it affects the Mean Radiant Temperature (MRT) which is the primary factor affecting human comfort.



    You can have a 70 degree F air temperature and still be uncomfortable cold (think Holohans "cold 70").



    It can take a while to raise the MRT in a given space. At my mountain home, I generally raise the temperature from its standby condition of 40 degrees F to it's occupied setting of 68 degrees F a couple of days in advance of getting here so we don't experience "cold 70".



    A portion of the output of radiant floors and walls is in the form of convection, but the primary mode of output is radiant energy. Once that energy is absorbed by a solid body, assuming that body is immersed in a cooler fluid (air) then convection does kick in to a greater degree.



    Radiant ceilings, for obvious reasons, have little to no convective capacity.



    The invisible is hard to see.... Especially when moving at the speed of light :-)



    Check out electric radiant cove heaters...



    Thanks for continuing to learn.



    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    If the heater has a standard American 3-prong plug

    it will run on a 15A circuit and will work with the standard Kill-A-Watt.
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    Well said...

    I don't mean to hijack this post, but you described perfectly the situation I'm having bring my house back from the arctic blast with a no heat situation. It sounds like I can overcome this if I give it some time. If only the upstairs didn't reach 90 deg on a long run.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    20 amp

    is still 3 prong 110v Kurt, and over loads the Kill-A-Watt. Usually all standard portable eletric spot heaters are rated for 15 amps. Just for the reason they are less likley to pop a breaker in older home wiring scenerios.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    Is this a good one?

    http://www.amazon.com/Weanas-Energy-Voltage-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00DTMQ1S6/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1391911785&sr=1-2&keywords=kill+watt+meter
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Kill-a-watt

    Can be bought at most home improvement stores in the electrical section.



    I'm only familiar with that brand it was the first device to do this,others followed. Cheaper is not always better.



    Again if you know the heaters wattage the math is quite simple.



    One other thing I hope you don't use this heater extensively, and unattended . They are not made to take the place of actual home heating means.
  • Chewy
    Chewy Member Posts: 23
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    I do....

    I do use it extensively, but not unattended. And I do not use it in place of my heating, that's why my thermostat is set at 60 instead of OFF.



    For the price of the killowat device, isn't it worth knowing exactly how much its using though? Which one would you recommend then? The same one that SWEI posted?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    20A 120V plugs

    Have one blade rotated 90º and are easy to identify.  Can't make or sell a >1500W appliance with a 5-15P cord.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Where there is a will

    People find, or make a way.



    http://t.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-20-Amp-T-Blade-Adapter-612-TADAPT20R/202070815



    All it takes from there is 12/3 wiring and a 20 amp breaker..



    Amazing isn't it.

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