remove insulation on one pipe

HoyteKing

Question: does removing the insulation from about 25 feet of a steam run (not the return) seriously effect the efficiency of a steam system. We have a Weill-McLain 588.

Background:

Last spring we had insulation put on all of our steam pipes in the building. There are three separate basements through which the pipes run (2 basement tiers and the boiler room).



One unit owner is irate that the far basement will now be too cold, and so was not in favor of installing insulation.



It seems someone removed insulation on a long run in that basement.

Dave in QCA

Yes and No

Taking the insulation off of the steam main is somewhat equivalent to installing a small radiator in the space. The steam main will condense more steam with it bare than with it insulated, but normally that will not cause a problem. Many systems operate with uninsulated mains because heat is needed in the space where the mains are located.



It would cost less to leave the basement space unheated, but if for whatever reason that is not acceptable, the operating cost difference is that you're now providing a little heat to that basement space.

icesailor

Smart Moves:

All I can personally say is that whomever told that guy that his basement would be too cold (too cold for what?) is a heck of a lot smarter than anyone here. I'd like it if that person could come here and give me (and anyone else here) a lesson on why our understanding of the functions of insulating steam mains is wrong. And all the old dead steam heads that came before us.

icesailor

Bare pipe heating equivelent:

There is a heating equivalent to a bare heating pipe. The larger the pipe, the greater the heating equivalent. A 4" bare pipe will give off more heat than a 3" pipe. Any excessive heat lost in the one basement is heat not available to another tenant. Once the steam condenses, it is water going back to the boiler.

What's the computed heat loss for the basement? Remember, the floor is usually thought to be 55 degrees and the loss valve is taken from two points, Grade up to the top of the foundation, and grade down to the floor. Grade up is figured to be the OAT. Grade down is an average of grade and frost as it gets warmer to the bottom of the slab.

There is no level low enough that some tenants will go to, to PO a landlord. Especially if you need the space occupied and producing income.

Jamie Hall

Sort of expanding a little

on Dave's comment -- yes, it is like putting a small radiator in the space.  And no, it won't affect the cost to operate much, any more than a small radiator would.



However.



What it will do is make it more difficult to maintain even heat distribution between any radiation beyond the uninsulated portion and radiation which has insulation.  The uninsulated section will get heat first, and while that section is heating up to its capacity as a radiator, no steam -- none, zip, nada -- will get beyond it.  This probably doesn't matter to the bloke who wants the heat in "his" basement.  It may, however, annoy the folks who are on that main beyond him...



It would be far better practice to actually install a radiator in the space.

HoyteKing

good info!

Thank you all for your responses. We are having a meeting this afternoon to discuss how to approach balancing our boiler system. Your input is very helpful.

Dave in QCA

Good Luck to you

As I recall, this saga has been going on a LONG time. Too bad for such an attractive building in a great Chicago neighborhood, that it is proving so difficult to get something that should be simple accomplished.



Running my building in Davenport with a set point of 71. Yesterday I checked and the south 1st floor was 71, the north first floor was 72. The third floor was 72. Of course it was a cloudy and there was no solar gain on the south side. But I have to tell you that we get zero complaints about temperature. The system works great. And, since it was balanced, and a new boiler installed, which happens to be a smaller version of yours, it being a Weil-McLain 680, our bills have dropped by 33%.



How much money has been wasted by over heating parts of your building? How is the undesirable heat affecting property values?

HoyteKing

Insulation on pipe to HIS unit!

The guy who removed the insulation is happy that he did because: the basement is warmer, his floor is warmer.



He and his wife are complaining about the unit being cold all the time, though.



When I pointed out to him at the meeting that removing the insulation would make it more difficult to heat his unit and balance the system he used his pat phrase: "We are not experts."



Basically, ignore me and suffer. In fact, the more honest and helpful I am, the less they want to trust me. So, my goal is to the best of my ability BE helpful and provide good advice. After all, my unit heat is ideal.

nicholas bonham-carter

"We are not experts" they said!

They could become knowledgeable if they spent some time here.

With fuel prices always capable of going up, there would be good reason to try and get these balance issues sorted out sooner rather than later.

You could take a computer to your meeting, and show them what advice has been given, since day one on this.

Maybe you should offer to make the rather simple adjustments we recommended, and then be able to keep the savings for yourself!--NBC

Pughie1

Pipe covering

As Dan has said, "Steam is just a gas desperately trying to become a liquid". As I understand it the dead men insulated the steam carrying pipes not to stop them from giving off heat, but, to keep the steam from condensing for as long as they could. In an ideal world not till the steam got to the radiation.

John Pughe