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New boiler, Insufficent heat

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2

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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Flow

    Let them Rip all the way...Cant hurt..



    What instrument are you using to check floor temps etc ?



    Other ways to tell the flow rate? Not really those flow control valves are a metering device which tells you what the flow rate is set at, and should be.
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    insulation

    After the insulation this morning. Now I see the master bathroom floor temp raised to 86 degrees. room temp is 69 so far. Its better than yesterday. As I said. Today outside temp is higher. I will give it a few more days to see. If insulation really makes that much different. I have to rip down the ceiling of gym room

    I use black&Decker thermal leak detector to check tempratures.
  • Hydro
    Hydro Member Posts: 20
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    Flow Rate

    THE FLOW RATE IS SUPER IMPORTANT!!!!! * If you have one loop flowing at .1, and all the rest at .08, guess where the majority of the water is flowing! All loops on a manifold must be balanced to exactly the same flow rate or it will not work properly
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    I think she

    said 1 as in 1gpm and .8 as in .8 gpm.



    Every loop does not need to have, and hardly ever will have the exact same flow rate on a manifold that has multiple zones controlled by actuators. The loops in each zone should be set to the flowrate required by that zone @ the water temp supplied to the manifold.



    We could into a whole discussion on this and the various ways to control btu output from a manifold. There is full flow reverse return controlled by modulating water temps and modulating TRVs. There are just so many right ways to do it.



    Hydro, If you wish to discuss that further, please start a new thread. We don't want to loose focus on the problem at hand.



    Harvey
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    It looks

    like you may be on the right track.



    Keep us posted on your progress.



    Also like Gordy said, you can open up those balancing valves and allow more flow to go through. The balancing valves are built into the same piece as the flow meters. Just lift the plastic ring around the bottom where it screws into the manifold and turn it to change the flow rate. You will also have to readjust the circulator. Set it at a 15°F differential (between supply and return) and see how that does.



    Harvey
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Insulation

    Glad to see improvement . Like Harvey said the rim joists were sucking the btus out of the floor. That room has 3 exterior walls which makes things even worse.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Hydro

    So long as the manifold is getting the proper gpm each loop can have a different flow rate without robbing flow from another loop.
  • Hydro
    Hydro Member Posts: 20
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    Flow Rate

    That is simply not true, if all of the telestats are open on a cold day, and you have one zone with 8 loops of different lengths, the water will flow to the path of least resistance, usually the shortest loop, with the least amount of fittings on it, robbing flow and Btus from other loops, and the floor mass will heat up unevenly, and will not work as efficiently as it can.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Flow

    Hydro,

    Are you thinking that the difference in flow between 0.8 gpm and 1.0gpm is part of the problem with this system? I think not. Both flows should give a delta t of less than 10. The difference would be undetectable.

    Nice work Gordy and Harvey downward heat loss to a conditioned space, good call.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Hydro

    If you have a manifold that has proper gpm supplied to it then the flow meters will do the rest.



    Hypothetical numbers.



    A six loop manifold getting 6 gpm supplied to it can easily have each loop with different flow rates with out robbing flow from another loop, or creating to much flow in another loop. The invention, and implementation of flow meters, and flow control valves has allowed the use of varying lengths of loops with out consequences.



    In the days before that it was good practice to keep loops with in 10% in length to avoid balancing issues



    All though we do not know in this case that the manifold in question has sufficient circ sizing it's a safe bet that if all flow meters are reading 1gpm that's what they will be giving.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    It was a cold day!

    How did your Master Bathroom fare today?



    Do you have any updates for us?



    Harvey
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Unable to maintain the temp

    Today Master bathroom is 65 after insulation

    Master bedroom is 57.

    I am worried if I do all the insulations. The temps still may not go to the thermostat setting.

    You know what, There r some improvement for masterbath after the insulation. I may just go ahead to insulate all. But What if the temp goes up, but not high enough as livable condition. What else can I do?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Variables

    You have to weed out the variables. Insulation to direct the btus where they need to be is one of them. It will help, and if that is not the only variable then at least we can forget about the insulation part of the equation.



    It's to bad you can't get to the rim joist area on the perimeter, and give it a little extra detail with xps , and spray foam insulation.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    The insulation

    definitely made a big difference. I would say you should go ahead and insulate the rest of the space. You have to remember that the Master Bathroom was most likely losing heat through uninsulated interior walls, to the adjacent Master Bedroom. It may be that after the whole thing is insulated, you will reach setpoint. If you don't quite reach 70° we can easily remedy that by increasing the flow rate to that manifold and maybe adjusting the water temp up a couple degrees.



    Harvey
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Insulation

    The whole section insulation will be done next week . I'll keep u updated by then . I think the same problem happening . When weather is cold , temp is not high enough . I used to have 3 boilers in the house and contractor changed one condensed boiler . The person comes from factory calculated that one boiler is enough . But if after insulation , temp still not enough . Should I install another boiler ? They must have reason why they install 3 boilers in the first place . But I ll discuss more after insulation . Today outside temps 40s . Master bath reached set up temp 74 and master bed 71 .
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    3 boilers or 1

    It is entirely possible to heat with one boiler instead of three. You stated in your original post that you had this issue before which is why you imputed, or contractor opted to replace boilers of old.



    Maybe the old boilers were staged where only all three ran on the coldest day. I don't think it's the boiler.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    You like it warm ;-)

    Industry standard for calculating heatloss for a Radiant Floor heating system is done with the assumption of an indoor temp of 68°

    My standard is I ask my customers what indoor temperature they prefer and I design based around that.



    I very highly doubt you need another boiler. I think after you get the insulation installed and if, you need a little more heat we can adjust the water up a little.



    In the meantime, if I remember correctly you said they installed a delta-t pump for this manifold. And they have it set at a 20° differential.

    Do me a favor and set that to a 10° differential.



    Harvey
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    10 degree different

    Do u mean supply and return different ? The contractor said he set 10 degree different . But due to too much heat loss . The return temp is more than 10 , about 20 . Hopefully insulation helps .

    Please correct me if I misunderstand you .
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Staged

    U r right . It was staged and one boiler mainly in charge of hot water heating . the reason changing system is master bedroom is getting cold and small leaking in the pipes in boiler room
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Ok

    You did not misunderstand.



    Have you opened the balancing valves on the manifold the whole way? If not, you probably should. Get as much flow through as we can.





    Harvey
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Flow meter

    Yes , they r opened all the way . Contractor came in yesterday and raised boiler temp to 160. Now system output almost 130 . Lets see if that make any different
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited February 2014
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    Lots of zones

    I am a bit late to the party here but will say all the advice you have received is quality .  I would like to know who from what factory visited your home .

    The fact that you have 32 zones is a good thing . Because of the number of zones and how this system is controlled you can raise the temp as high as you need to at any time , although this is not desirable as far as efficiency that the boiler will achieve .  I will explain , when the floor surface temp in any zones reaches the temperature it should to satisfy that zone the thermostat will open and shut that zone down stopping flow thus making overheating the finish floor highly unlikely , no flow no more heat .  What really interests me is the fact that I just designed a room 2 days ago that had tubing installed by another . That room is 672 Square feet has a modest amount of windows and has a design heat loss of 15,024 . Differences are that it is slab on grade with R 5 below and at perimeter .

      This tubing was installed at 15" centers and the loops are in excess of 250 feet in length , design parameters are 0* ODT and 70* indoor . I will attach actual and what should have been at the end for review .  Point being , your Master bedroom should have had more and shorter loops . If the 00VDT put in was not of the 0013 variety you are more likely than not ever going to achieve desired room setpoint .  Couple that with the fact that 98% of the guys around here use default program settings or bogus design temps like 14* for here and you have a recipe for being cold . Harvey does what I do in asking the customer what they would like in their home , this is the only way to do it . So when a factory guy says this boiler and / or system should perform to design that may not be accurate because the design contains errors .

    Good call on the insulation , that is always required , heat does not rise , it is lazy and stupid and will go the easiest way it can , By the way if heat rises how does the sun know to always have its top pointed toward Earth ?

       Here are the reports from that exposed basement room , please look at them and see what you think
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Insulation

    Insulation from below is a must in any radiant installation! If your rooms still don't heat to your liking, the problem is most likely in the design of the system. You may need to add supplemental heat such as panel radiators, baseboard, towel warmers etc. Before you take this approach though, you should get a qualified radiant tech to your home to assess the situation.

    In short, get the insulation done and if that doesn't solve the problem I would recommend calling Thacher heating. Here is a link mailto:contact@ecuacool.com.

    Joe is a true profesional and I am sure he can get your system straightend out. I am sure everyone on this site agrees.



    Rob
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Heat loss calculation

    The person from factory is from uponor . I have exactly 3 pages reports like the one u attached . For master bed , heated area is 783 sq ft , wall 1813, windows 3510, infiltration , 4514. Radiant into room 9837 , floor downward 3279 , total radiant load. 13116 . The demolition of basement ceiling and insulation will be done next week . I will let u know how it turned out afterward . Again , yesterday and today outside temp is nice and warm , mb temp reached thermostat setting as well . It might have loop design flaw from original designer . I agree with u . But those loops embedded inside concrete slab . I guess it is difficult to change or add loops
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Corrections

    The report I had doesn't detail into doors , each wall or each. Windows . It is one zone per line . I have another report for recommendations of each balance valve setting . But right now . All the valves in those zones are fully open
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    I agree

    I appreciate your recommendations . I'll keep u updated after insulation done .
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Loops

    You say there are 2 for the master bedroom , are you sure there are not more than 2 ? 2 is not enough for this room , it should have at least 3 , if the ooVDT pump that was installed is a 008 it is not capable of adding the appropriate mechanical energy to a 2 loop configuration . This si shown on the reports I attached . I was hoping other pros would look at them to verify that fact . The 008 can move 4 GPM at roughly 14 feet of head , with only 2 loops you would have to be upwards of 20 feet .

      You should certainly follow Rob's advice and contact someone that does this competently . If Joe is not available , I am here in NJ also .  I Pm'd you my information .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Loops

    Each loop r labeled . I am pretty sure only 2 loops r in master bedroom . Only kitchen / family room has 3 loops in the house . I appreciate ur advice . Maybe the pump is not adequate if the temp still not going up after insulation which will be done in coming Tuesday And wedesday . If I still have problems after insulation . I will call u definitely . I will keep u updated . Today outside is 40s to 50s . MB temp is good . The problem is when it drops to 20s , I have to live in guest bedroom . Sounds crazy .
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Insulation

    Did you get the insulation done? Any better?



    Rob
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Insulation

    Insulation was done yesterday . Floor temp raised to 80s . Room temp 70. Just a little below the setting . I am very happy about it . I can't believe insulation made so much difference . Outside temp is 20-30 today. I'll give a few more days . Then give u the update :)
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Success

    I'm glad your system seems to be functioning properly now. A radiant floor heating system properly installed is delightfully comfortable!



    Aren't you glad you stopped in at The Wall :-)



    Harvey
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Always good to hear back

    and close the loop on the stories here.



    Did you get your outdoor temp sensor installed and the reset curve programmed?
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Lazy and stupid

    Heat is both , see what one well placed obstacle can do ?  Glad your stuff works now .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    I appreciate

    I am so glad insulation is working and I am grateful that I found this site . I really appreciate everyone's help and input .



    Thank you. Harvey !!
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Outdoor sensor

    Outdoor sensor not installed yet . Should I wait outside get warmer ?
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Insulation

    Yes . I am so glad . Thank u, Rich
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Install it now

    while you have a chance to setup the ODR parameters.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    77 posts

    Problem solved!
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited February 2014
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    Answers

    that are actually answers from the homeowner are great aren't they Gordy ? The action to get the right people in there doesn't hurt either .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Melhe
    Melhe Member Posts: 40
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    Thank you

    I will ask him to set up once he comes back . There are still a little issues. He will come back soon. Thanks for the advice