Mixing Valve Noise w/Video & Audio

BigRob

Has anyone heard a mixing valve make sounds like this before? This valve is a Watts MM430. Something is not right:



<a href="http://youtu.be/O_mjz_9pARw">http://youtu.be/O_mjz_9pARw</a>

Steve Whitbeck

noise

First off - WHY is your pressure so high. You have a problem that needs IMEDIATE attention.

Is the noise a mechanical noise. Can You see the linkage?  Is the linkage moving when the noise happens?

Steve Whitbeck

Pictures

We need more info and pictures of your boiler and near boiler piping.

ASAP

Hydronicz

ok

Try to get a photo of the pipeing. Why do you guys think the pressure is high? That should be normal 50psi, its comming out of the coil, not the boiler pressure. Iv seen alot of holby valves making noises like that. If the temp fluctuates a lot id get a rebuild kit or replace it, if your temp is fine at 120 130 id leave it alone

Gordy

Boiler pressure

Should be 12 psi normally.



Wondering what size relief valve? Why it's not popping off?

Hydronicz

I think

Your confused, the boiler pressure relief is most likely rated at 30lbs. His gauge is not reading boiler pressure its reading domestic water pressure, so if anything that shouls blow off the coil relief valve wich is prob set 100lbs or more.

Zman

Dhw

It is a dhw mixing valve. How is it piped? Is there a recirc pump?

Carl

Gordy

Tempering valve

Then it would be called. I was thrown by the tridictator gauge.

Steve Whitbeck

valve

On domestic water it is usually called a Tempering valve.

On a boiler the same valve is a mixing valve - used to lower the boiler water temp down to a lower temp.

BigRob

Pictures

Hey guys, really sorry about the late response! Thank you for all your input. I didn't have the subscription enabled by mistake.



The video is of the tempering valve output. The sound you hear is either the valve bouncing around or a water hammer. The tempering valve is pretty new. The previous setup had no problems whatsoever with water hammer, so I'm really stumped. The valve is a Watts LHMM433. The water hammer seems to be on the cold side only. Take a look at my pictures. I tried removing the integrated Watts integrated "flow checks" to no avail. Currently, the there is one swing check on the main water line from the city. The line them branches to two spring checks, one on the cold input to the mixer, the other to the hot water tank. The building is a 12 condo unit building with double occupancy and 2 full baths in each unit. The boiler room is on the top of the 3 story building. I've attached some pictures. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks for your help!

Zman

When?

When does the noise occur? Does it go away if you turn off the recirc pump?

Carl

icesailor

Mixer:

I can't see everything there like the actual mixer, but something looks terribly wrong. There needs to be some sort of a potable water expansion tank AFTER the cold water check valve and the mixer. Is that Watts valve a true thermostatic mixer? Is that what is required in that jurisdiction?

Mass. Code allows a small (1/8")  hole drilled into the check valve brass flapper to let some expanding water to get out and relieve pressure.

If it is a Thermostatic Valve, is it sized properly. It is worse to oversize it than to grossly undersize it. Because I can't see or figure out where the valve is, the recirculating line usually goes into the thermostatic mixer.

I hadone where the wrong valve "Watts N2" was spec'ed and installed. I put in a Leonard SM Series. It's hard to size thermostatic mixers. They work best when used fully and drop off with less usage. With no flow, you depend on the properly installed Recirc. line to keep the flow up and make it work. The one I fixed clanged every time a Solenoid Valve opened or closed in the kitchen or a hot water faucet was slammed shut.

Zman

Expansion

It looks likes you have an abundance of check valves and where is the expansion tank?

Are both of the valves returning from the recirc pump open? It needs to have free flow to either the hot or cold side of the mixer.

Ice,

It looks like the tempering valve is laying on it's back in the middle of the picture, directly below the gauge.

Carl

icesailor

Furthermore,

Furthermore, I can't find a Watts LHMM 433 listed with them, Watts.

They also have this warning on all their thermostatic valves.

When I had the problem with the N2 Mixer in a nursing home, I called watts and a woman engineer ripped my head off and told me to get it out of there IMMEDIATELY because is wasn't designed and approved for that application. Symmons didn't have a valve. Only Leonard and Powers had them. Maybe more now. And maybe Watts bought out someone with the proper. listed valve.

Watts Hot Water Master Tempering Valves cannot be used for

tempering water temperature at fixtures. Severe bodily injury (i.e.,

scalding or chilling) and/or death may result depending upon system

water pressure changes and/or supply water temperature changes.

ASSE standard 1016, 1069 or 1070 listed devices such as Watts

Series MMV, LFMMV, USG, LFUSG, L111 or LFL111 valves should be

used at fixtures to prevent possible injury.

The Watts Hot Water Tempering Valves are designed to be installed at

or near the boiler or water heater. They are not designed to compensate

for system pressure fluctuations and should not be used where ASSE

standard 1016, 1069 or 1070 devices are required. These Watts valves

should never be used to provide “anti-scald” or “anti-chill” service.

Need for Periodic Inspection: Periodic inspection by a licensed

contractor is recommended. Corrosive water conditions, temperatures

over 210°F, unauthorized adjustments or repair could render

the valve ineffective for service intended. Regular checking and

cleaning of the valves internal components and checkstops helps

to assure maximum life and proper product function. Frequency of

cleaning depends upon local water conditions.

! WARNINGWARNING

! WARNINGWARNING

ENGLISH INSTRUCTIONS

You are required to thoroughly read all installation instructions and

product safety information before beginning the installation of this product.

FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH PROPER INSTALLATION AND

MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS COULD RESULT IN PRODUCT

FAILURE WHICH CAN CAUSE PROPERTY DAMAGE, PERSONAL

INJURY AND/OR DEATH. Watts is not responsible for damages resulting

from improper installation and/or maintenance.

Local building or plumbing codes may require modifications to the

information provided. You are required to consult the local building and

plumbing codes prior to installation. If this information is not consistent

with local building or plumbing codes, the local codes should be followed.Watts is not responsible for damages resulting

from improper installation and/or maintenance.

Local building or plumbing codes may require modifications to the

information provided. You are required to consult the local building and

plumbing codes prior to installation. If this information is not consistent

with local building or plumbing codes, the local codes should be followed.

! WARNINGWARNING

FRONT OUTLET BACK OUTLET TOP OUTLET

Zman

Oh my!

Ice,

This is the valve he has  http://www.powerscontrols.com/pages/product_full.asp?pid=6370

Everything is going to be OK.

Carl

BigRob

Thanks guys

Hey guys, thanks for your input and caution. There is an expansion tank between the tank and tank check valve. You can see it in the top left of the first picture. The recirculation lines from the pump to the cold tempering valve input and tank have valves and they are open and set to maintain the recirc loop temperature.



My current thoughts:



1. I'm wondering if the recirculation line temperature is fluctuating and causing some volume and pressure changes which are not immediately absorbed by the expansion tank.

2. I wonder if air is collecting in the high cold inlet pipe and high hot outlet pipes. The reason I say this is that while I was turning down the tempering temperature I hear a bunch of air bubbles pass through as the cold water flow increased. The cold inlet and hot outlet are literally the high point of the system. I think I'll try this again and see if I hear anything. If the tempering valve is oversized, perhaps I'm not getting much flow to carry air out.

3. Maybe some crap is gumming up the tempering valve internal components



Sorry if I missed any questions- quick reply during work. Will reread later.

BigRob

Update

Hello all, I called the factory and they told me where the model number was located. It was on top of the valve and it was hard to see with the valve mounted so high. The tempering valve is a LHMM434-1 and Powers recommends the LHMM431-1.



I came up with 113 fixture units for our building. 7 units have 2 full baths with tubs w/overhead showers. Five units have 2.5 baths with tubs w/overhead showers. All 12 units have dishwashers and laundry. 113 fixtures units is around 33-38gpm based on some stuff I found online. Using the powers web tool with the apartment/multifamily option and adding 12 laundry units I get 29gpm.



Powers says when a valve is oversized the actuator can go bad in about 6 months to a year. It seems that is the case.



I'm considering putting two Honeywell AMX102-UT-1LF's in parallel. Thoughts? Should I reverse return them or stage them?

BigRob

So, an update update. It all turned out to be a bunch of leaky and cycling toilets - a lot of them - $500/month worth of them. Amazing. I'm keeping an eye on the valve actuator, but that may have been a poorly setup recirculation system. Four stainless TCV's were installed. One on each parallel branch. Then, a grundfos Alpha was installed and it's working pretty well. When the valves open, the alpha pumps more (Cp mode) and heats up a branch until the valve closes. Before, the recirculation temperature had to be cranked up to keep some of the branches from cooling. Four check valves were also installed.

Harvey Ramer

I went to a house once to figure out a strange noise. Every once in a while, you would hear this sound. It sounded like a Mini gun in the distance.

It took a while, but I finally found the source. It was a weird toilet valve that caused the problem. Basically, when the valve was almost closed, it would start chattering. Bouncing off the ripples on the water until enough water squeezed by to make it stop. In this instance the flapper was also leaking a bit, so this hammering noise happened at any time of night or day.

hot_rod

Sometimes a Hi-Lo is a better choice for that type of building. It's tough to build a valve that can flow high gpm rates and adjust accurately, and also handle a single faucet draw for example.

Most of the mix valve manufacturers offer pre-plumbed Hi-Lo for this type of application.

Also the record piping is important with thermostatic mixers to prevent temperature creep.

Here is a drawing of one way to pipe a record and thermostatic, and a link to a DHW tech journal.

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_11.pdf

icesailor

Somehow, with my advancing age and deteriorating mind I didn't see the continuation of this string.

Don't change the oversize valve for two smaller ones, put a smaller one of the same brand/type and style. These valves all work best when maxed out.

The Leonard dual high/low controller is really a solution.

The OP said the valve was a Watts. When in fact, it was a Powers. Notice in the instructions, it mentions that the Powers valve will shut if there is a problem with a cold water failure. It is usually operated by a solenoid. With some of these valves, if there is a cold water failure, the valve must be manually re-set.

That installation looks like one that I am familiar with. Hot Rod posted good drawings for the return circulation. If however, the DHW source is very high in temperature, and you are using the valve to temper the water throughout the system, you get temperature creep in the system at all/odd hours. You expect the return water to return back into the system but take some new hot water when the system temperature drops, but it takes too much and rises to dangerous levels. If you install an industrial process thermostatic valve on the return so that ALL the return water goes through the valve, and when the return temperature drops, the process valve opens and diverts a required amount of return water back to the source, the small amount of hot water will cause a correction and rise in temperature.

If the DHW temperature in the system becomes an issue, and you have a problem, consider it this way.

Look at the whole issue like it is a radiant floor system that you are trying to control. Its a lot easier to understand and fix it if you just imagine it as a big radiant job.

It worked for me.

If anyone cares.

icesailor

@hot rod:

Thanks for posting that source.

Look on page 4 of that manual. Showing how to connect side arm heaters to storage tanks. Notice the cold and hot connect directly to the tank. No "shared" connections into the coils. The coils have a job of their own. The only "Shared" connections when I do it are connections directly in to the tank. And with electric water heaters being used as storage tanks, it is only the shared cold water inlet sharing the heated water from the coil when the circulator is running. With small circulators like a Taco 006 BT, the incoming cold water will overcome the pumping of the small circulator if the flow is high.

If anyone cares.

Those old dead Steamheads had it all figured out how to move steam and water around without pumps.

hot_rod

In a perfect world... point of use thermostatic valves are also installed.

The POU ASSE 1070 assures proper mix temperature right at the fixture.

A central mixer back at the heat source ASSE 1017 can vary temperature a bit, in addition to the temperature loss thru the piping runs, which is why critical applications, hospitals, day care, senior housing, etc usually have a listed POU valve speced by the ME.

Keeping in mind mixing valves are an ongoing maintenance item. In some water conditions and high "hot" temperatures they may require de-liming every 6 months to assure accurate mixing.

icesailor

IMO. in Hospital, Nursing Home, Adult Day Care Schools Etc, using POU mixers are a cop out on the part of ME's who spec them. Each and every one is a potential source of cross connections. And try finding one of those in a large building you have never been in before. It takes your best person and someone to run around with them with radios or cell phones.

The new CFO. being paid obscene money, doesn't want to spend for quality maintenance personnel, and no boss wants to send valuable personnel looking for stupid no hot water problems.

Some public places out there have hot water hot enough to take the hide right off your hand before you realize it. Especially Motels.

hot_rod

More of a code and liability issue I believe.

It's not unusual to have multiple temperature requirements in a building. Kitchens, hand wash, eye wash, showers, bidets all require different temperatures to be code compliant. That's why there is such a confusing selection of ASSE listing numbers, and they change and update every few years.

Every one of those listings has different requirements for the manufacturers, and the IAMPO test is very strict regarding valve performance.

Unless you want to be named in a soft tissue lawsuit, best to use the valve the ME has in the spec, and or the code required. I think legionella concerns and potential outcome will trump cross connection issues, when the code bodies and legal teams get involved

BigRob

hot rod said:

Sometimes a Hi-Lo is a better choice for that type of building. It's tough to build a valve that can flow high gpm rates and adjust accurately, and also handle a single faucet draw for example.

Most of the mix valve manufacturers offer pre-plumbed Hi-Lo for this type of application.

Also the record piping is important with thermostatic mixers to prevent temperature creep.

Here is a drawing of one way to pipe a record and thermostatic, and a link to a DHW tech journal.

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_11.pdf

Caleffi did a great job with these tech journals. Do you know who manufacturers that grey water heat recovery unit?

I love the huge bag type storage tanks, too. A friend bought a condo in the Bay Area that was built in the late 70's. The concept of the development was solar water heating and all things eco. He and I were checking out the boiler room. It was pretty awesome. Ancient Grundfos pumps in series and parallel, two 500 gallon storage tanks, and dual Laars boilers. One tank was for the drainback system, although the tank seems to have ruptured at some point. They hope to bring the solar stuff back online, soon. The other tank is for hot water, and via a heat exchanger, radiant flooring. No short cycling here. I will post pictures at some point. The initial design was definitely done by a pro. The maintenance, not so much. It's funny we are moving forward to the past, right now.

Mark Eatherton

Drain Waste Heat Recovery unit can be purchased from Swing-green.com They were also recently featured on the RPA Hydronics Talk show. Tell them I said hello!

Paul48

I think all thermostatic mixing valves either come with check valves or require their use in the install instructions, now, to prevent cross-connections. You know....It's that paper that everybody doesn't look at.

hot_rod

correct Paul, many don't realize the checks need to be installed to meet the ASSE listing.

Thermostatic mixers are sold with or without the checks, as hydronic applications are a common use for thermostatic valves, and do not need the checks to operate. Or to meet any listing.

icesailor

True. And if you buy a mixer to be used in a Potable Water/DHW system, the wholesaler doesn't stock the ones with checks and they have to special order the checks for you a minimum of 6 "because no one uses them". And no one pipes them into heat traps them so they burn out the elements and make the plungers stick.