Complete System Review (Two pipe System plus One pipe Counter Flow Extension)

Clank Clank

The two story home with basement has a Weil-Mclain EG-50 boiler piped with a combination of a two pipe wet return air vent gravity system which supports the majority of the house (7 radiators and a main air vent) and then a one pipe counterflow system supporting another 3 radiators (with no main air vent on this side). All radiators are cast iron baseboards except for one which is a classic 2 column, 38" high cast iron radiator. Most have the opinion that it will never work properly or efficiently due to baseboards and the undersized 3/4" sized run-outs & risers. That said, i'd like to get the most out of what is already there but my knowledge and skills are limited.



The system is laid out as described in the diagram except for one big exception. Not understanding two pipe systems, i previously capped all the returns, so in essence, it is currently functioning as a one pipe system (probably wasn't my greatest idea..). Here are the current issues (Please note the radiators are labeled with numbers (1,2,3...9) just for reference):

- Despite the pressure setting to be from .5 to 1.5, the pressure is cutting in at 2.5 and cutting off a little less than 5. Once heated it short cycles between these two in about 2 minute intervals

- The three radiators (7,8,9) which are attached to the counter flow section are the worst offenders. There is severe clanking upon startup followed by water swooshing and gargling. Radiator #9 upstairs, breathes in and out thru the vent before the steam can finally get there. SInce its close to the bedrm, i've been forced to shut #9's supply valve ( due to the clanking noise).

- Other radiators at times have spat water and periodically clank, but suprizingly, after skimming and flushing the boiler, they have behaved a bit. There was constant clanking at the end of the cycles before i flushed the water. Thankfully that stopped. The boiler water level is also pretty stable.

- As a note, I just installed a new main vent (Gorton #1). It was piped for one previously but the old vent, which was a lot smaller than the #1, was buried in a ceiling and sealed.



Possible incremental improvement areas:

1. Given the pressure is not cutting off at 1.5, do i need to replace those components on the boiler? Regardless of how inefficient the boiler might be, if the cutoff was properly working, it should never go beyond the setting right?



2. The pipes are not insulated so that will be done. Question is whether you are supposed to insulate the header as well. I read somewhere that insulation should start at least 3 ft from the boiler. Is that true?



3. Is there anything wrong with the near boiler piping that anyone can see?



4. Based on the location and size of the radiators, what would the proper air vent sizes be for each radiator? See diagram for current setup.



5. Even though the riser might be just 3/4", is it worth changing the supply valve to a bigger size, especially at radiator #8? What size and what piping is required to do it correctly?



6. Since there are no main air vents on that side, should an air vent be placed right before the #8 radiator as well as the radiator iteslf? Should i put two air vents on the radiator?



7. Reconnecting the radiator return lines and re-adjusting the radiator pitch seems the way to go but based on the pics, is it properly piped to be a two pipe, air vent gravity system?

A. The return side never had a shut off valve. Does it need one?

B. The return pipe is the same size as the supply (3/4"). Is that an issue?

C. Not all the returns connect straight down into the wet return. One radiator on th 2nd floor connects to the return of a 1st floor radiator (which runs down to the wet return). Other returns connect to the pipe which takes the end of the main downward into the wet return. See pics. Any issues with how this is piped? Anything i've seen online had each radiator run down to the wet return independently.



8. If i was to break open the walls, what changes would i prioritize from a piping perspective?



9. Any other suggestions?



Thank you all in advance.

JStar

Steam

Woah, okay...



Yes, reconnect all of the returns and get the system back to its original condition. The steam main and dry returns also need to enter the wet return separately. Right now, steam will enter the returns and cause all sorts of problems.



Where are you located? A steam pro really needs to evaluate this system in person.

Jamie Hall

Say what?

Let me see if I have this straight.  You had a two pipe steam heating system (the term "gravity" isn't used in steam; that's an older style of hot water system) and you have capped off all the returns.  There is also a part of the system which you describe as a one pipe, counterflow system, which is giving you some trouble.



You also mention something about 3/4 inch piping.



A little hard to say where to begin...



A place to start would be for you to order the set of books -- particularly Lost Art of Steam Heating -- from this site, so you could begin to learn how the system was supposed to operate.



But just for starters.  Pipe size.  Pipe sizes in steam are related to the amount of radiation to which they are connected; this is measured in "EDR".  You need to figure the EDR of the various radiators and baseboard to be able to get the proper pipe sizes.  But, for starters, in a one pipe conterflow system the minimum riser size is 1 inch pipe, but that won't take much radiation.  The minimum pipe size for any horizontal section is also 1 inch -- but that will take even less radiation.  One and a quarter or one and a half will give you more capacity.  Any horizontal bit of pipe must slope at least one half inch per foot of run.  Minimum.  Three radiators is likely to require at least one and a half inch for any horizontal sections -- runouts -- and two inch would be better; you might get away with inch and a quarter for the vertical riser.  I'm not a bit surprised that those three radiators on the counterflow section misbehave.  I'd be a lot more surprised if they didn't.



Wet returns, which carry no steam, can be smaller -- but the minimum pipe size is still 1 inch.  That can handle several radiators, though.



You don't say anything about what, if anything, was at the return of each of the radiators on the two pipe section, except that you've capped the returns.  This, of course, has converted that whole section into a one pipe system.  Therefore the same rules will apply (the pipes in a two pipe system can be smaller -- down to three quarter inch, although one inch is more common as a minimum size).  If all  the returns went directly to a wet return, then there really wasn't a need for an appliance at the outlet (although there then need to be air vents on each radiator).  This wasn't a common way to pipe a system, though -- usually there was a dry return -- so I would check that.  The one pair which shared a return riser, though, had to have had something on their outlets so that steam wouldn't be able to get through the return from one to the other.



The three quarter inch sizes for the risers and returns might be adequate; it would be necessary to determine the connected EDR in each case.



The three quarter inch pipe size for the system as set up as a one pipe system is surely not adequate.  See above.



Unless the pipe sizes are changed to the appropriate sizes and pitched properly, and in the two pipe section the returns are replaced and pitched properly and any outlet appliances replaced, to be rather bluntly honest I don't see any point in worrying about the pressuretrol settings or insulation... until that is done, whoever told you it won't work properly is quite correct, but not because of the baseboards (nothing wrong with them).



You've got some plumbing to do...

Paul48

Should

be east to tell when a return springs a leak, as they are right over the electric. If it were mine, I'd probably repipe the whole basement.There doesn't seem to be enough there that's proper, to warrant leaving any of it.

Clank Clank

Not the greatest news, but....

Thanks for the replies so far. It sounds like it was never piped correctly to be a two pipe system with air vents since the returns don't independently run to the wet return. In regard to a dry return, there isn't one beyond the piping shown.



Would the piping indicate their used to be steam traps at the end of the radiators? Instead of replacing the piping right now, would installing steam traps and getting rid of the air vents actually return the system to its original intention?



In regard to the one pipe counterflow section, i guess its a given that the 3/4" pipe isn't going to give me a noise free operation. I read the best I could do is possibly slow the venting down by placing a Hoffman 40 vents. True?



In general, there are small vents on the radiators (gorton #4,5,6s) in most places. Given the size of the pipes, should I keep it that way? Would enlarging them increase the speed of the steam, hence getting more water trapped in the pipe? The diagram shows the radiator and vent details if required.



Understood that the recommendation so far is to blow it all up but not ready for that type of project at the moment. Trying to make any incremental improvements possible without breaking walls. I'm located in Astoria, Queens, NY.



Thanks again

vaporvac

Jstar...

I believe Jstar, who posted above, services your area. He's not only a pro who knows his stuff, but a pro with a passion for his profession. He's one of the many on this site constantly going one step further and upping everyone's game. You are very lucky he's nearby. (Check out his installs posted here on The Wall.)



Even if you're not ready and willing redo everything, he may be able to give you an incremental plan of attack. I'm a homeowner like yourself, and he's given me immeasurable help and encouragement on my current install just through this site. i can't imagine how awesome it would be to have him check out my system. Colleen

Clank Clank

How much water is too much?

Understanding there is no such thing as typical, what is a "reasonable" amount of water that would need to be refilled into the boiler after a week or two time period? 2gal? 10gal?



Whats the number that would clearly indicate a leak or bad air valve? (assuming a NYC winter in a 2 story home...)



thanks

vaporvac

Recent thread...

Here's a recent thread that addresses that exact issue:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/144141/How-much-water-do-you-use

Clank Clank

Chipping away

Despite the riser being just 3/4", is there a chance that bumping the supply valve to a bigger size might alleviate at least some of the banging? The specific radiator in reference is a standard cast iron 2 column, 38"H with 6 sections. From what i read, a 1-1/4" valve suits that size.



If that might help, essentially go from the 3/4" riser, to a 3/4" to 11/4" connection/reducer to a short 11/4" pipe to the valve?

JStar

Valve

Probably not. The pipe is only as big as the smallest size in the run. The only option is to install the correctly sized run-out and valve.

Clank Clank

steam traps

thank you for the replies ...



Putting aside the 3 radiators that only have one pipe running to them, what about the idea of removing the air vents and installing steam traps? Seems as if this is the best match for the existing piping...

Clank Clank

When your right, your right

Despite the words of wisdom, i had to satisfy my need to experiment. After different combinations of increasing the valve size and adding/subtracting air vents, the radiator still plays the symphony as loudly as before. Looks like i'll have to change the size of the runout to finally have peace... Jstar called it.