66 degrees on first floor, 78 on second - how to adjust?

mickeyg

Our house is a 1918 colonial with a gas fired steam system. There are 4 bedrooms upstairs with a radiator in each room, and 3 rooms downstairs with 3 radiators and the thermostat. I get that heat rises, and we have more radiators upstairs, but there is often a 5-10 degree difference in temperature of the two floors. Any suggestions on how we can lower the heat upstairs, or move the hot air downstairs?



I've turned all the steam valves to their lowest setting (even turned one radiator off). I've thought about a cealing fan at the top of our stairs, but the landing/hallway is small (3 feet wide) so we would need a very short blade, but if it was small enough to fit the space, would it actually have enough "power" to help move the hot air down the stairway?



Other ideas welcome!

ChrisJ

What type?

What type of system do you have?  One pipe, two pipe?



On my one pipe system I installed TRVs in two of our bedrooms on the second floor to stop this problem.  So far it works beautifully as it regulates when the radiators get steam and how much.  In fact it works so well my first floor is 71F as is most of the 2nd floor but my bedroom stays between 65-67F exactly where I want it as long as we keep the door mostly closed or closed.  Whether its 5F out or 50F my bedroom is the right temperature.



Between those two radiators alone the TRVs reduce or even completely eliminate approximately 100sqft of radiation which is enough to keep the 2nd floor in balance.

STEAM DOCTOR

imbalance

First thing to check is if the radiators. If all the radiators are getting hot at relatively the same time,then the underlying problem is probably not in the heating system(unless some switched radiators over the years).

If you determine that the radiators are not heating evenly then you would need to do some troubleshooting. Do you have properly sized and functioning vents on the mains? Do you have properly sized radiator air vents? Do you have the same type of radiator covers/enclosures on all of the radiators? Are all of the supply valves open? There are other things to check but I would start with these.

Pipedope_2

IF

This is a one pipe system, I would start with adjusting, or changing the radiator vents. Slower ones upstairs, faster ones downstairs.

STEAM DOCTOR

Balancing

Cant say that I agree with that approach. Radiator air vents should be sized based on the amount of air in each radiator. The only difference between the first floor and second fr is approx 10 feet of 1" or 1 1/4" pipe. The extra pipe does not contain that much air.

If the mains are not properly vented then you could end up like a dog chasing his tail. The radiator enclosure thing is serious. Could make world of a difference in heat output. Could be in the 50% range

mickeyg

One Pipe and Covers

thanks - it's a one pipe system, and the downstairs have built ins surrounding the two main ones with only about 6 inches of the metal screen open one each (the rest is wood), while upstairs have covers that aren't secured to the wall and the whole fronts are metal screens. We are planning to open the downstairs covers more, but that's a project for the summer when our work schedules open up. I just wasn't sure how much that would make a difference. Although, maybe we do that sooner so we can test it before next winter.



They do all seem to get warm at the same time, at least generally. The ones under the built ins are harder to tell since I can't get to them to see how hot they are compared to the others.



We bought the house in August (first home) so while our inspector checked the system, it was fine for the short time they had it fired up. We replaced the thermostat with a programmable one, which I later learned was not a good idea (the knocking and hammering was intense - we've since set it to not sway more than 2 degrees).



Total newbie with this, so thanks for all the advice.

Pipedope_2

Agreed

I never thought about the enclosures. That said, I would start to experiment with opening them up now. Why waste this years fuel waiting for next year?

If they only left 6" at the top, is the bottom open?

mickeyg

Thanks

Got the husband to pull the one "freestanding" built one off in the living room (and now we know there are hardwood floors under the carpeting, ah discoveries) to see if that will make any difference over the next few days. The dining room one is a little more difficult, since it is connected to the wall of shelves and cabinets. But yes, there is a small opening at the bottom. Here's a picture of what the dining room one is - that's just half of the part under the windows, so you can see the metal mesh at the top, and the inch opening or so at the bottom where the radiator actual is.

ChrisJ

Wow

Why would someone make a radiator enclosure that is almost completely enclosed except at the top?



I would tend to agree with others that those are a big part of your problem. See in my house I don't have any enclosures but I have a problem with oversized radiators in the bedrooms and with heat rushing up my stairs especially during extreme cold. For those problems the TRVs are amazing.



Your radiators don't just radiate, they also work through convection meaning they need to be able to circulate air through them. Those enclosures not only block most of the radiation, they are suffocating the air circulation as well.

SWEI

Is that old casework or new?

If it's new, I'll agree with the others -- the builder didn't have a clue.



If the casework is over 75 years old you might look around the outside of the house for some old vents, quite likely covered.

mickeyg

Cold days worse

We are guessing the covers were not original, but built maybe in the 50's? Tonight, while the temp outside is 1 degree, the bedrooms are 80, so I think a trip shopping for TRV are in order.

Pipedope_2

But

Even if you install the TRV's, it's still going to take longer than necessary to heat those downstairs rooms and satisfy the thermostat. I can't believe how small the opening on the bottom of the one in the picture.

Mark N

Oveheated

Where is the thermostat located and what is it set to? I removed my radiator enclosure 3 or 4 years ago after learning that they reduced the heat output from my rads by 30%. With my rad enclosures on the rads and the lids closed my boiler would run 30 to 35 minutes to maintain 70 in the house. I then propped open all the lids. The boiler then would run 20 to 25 minutes to maintain 70. If your thermostat is located in one of the rooms with the an enclosed rad, and the boiler is running longer to maintain the temp. That could possible cause the upstairs to be hotter. Also, I've noticed in my home with temps in the 20's or 30's my upstairs bedrooms are 1 or 2 degrees colder than downstairs. But when it gets real cold down below 10 my boiler runs maybe once an hour and the upstairs will become 1 or 2 degrees hotter than downstairs.

mickeyg

Living Room

The thermostat is in the living room (wall opposite the radiator) and we have it set to 66. Haven't noticed any difference since we pulled the cover off that radiator, although as I mentioned it is abnormally cold here in NJ these days and last night I woke up around 4 am to it 80 degrees upstairs, and it was still 66 in the living room. Think I might sleep downstairs for the next few days until we get the TRV's installed

Mark N

Boiler Run Time

Next time the heat kicks on time how long the boiler runs to satisfy the thermostat. Time how long it is off between calls for heat. What thermostat do you have? Get yourself a copy of "We Got Steam Heat" from the shop here on Heatinghelp. Go to the library under resources. Many great articles there under Older Steam Heating Systems. Read "Its All in the Venting" and "The Big Fault in One-Pipe Heating". Reading these articles will help in understanding how to balance one pipe steam system.

bak_phy

Same exact problem

I'm having the exact same problem in NJ as well. I live in an old 3 story victorian with 1 pipe steam which I moved into in March. Since moving in I've replaced all the windows and insulated the attic as well as the basement steam pipes. Once cold weather started a few months back the 2nd floor rooms were always in the 80s at night even with the thermostat on the ground floor set to 68 and the rooms on the 3rd floor a few degrees higher than that. I replaced most of the bedroom air vents with TRVs which helped a bit but even at the lowest servings the radiators would still get hot. I then turned down the system pressure which I noticed cut out at 6psi!. I turned it all the way down but from the gauge it still cut in at 2.5 ad out around 4. The radiators are much quieter now but I've been unable to get the ground floor hot enough now and the second floor is still about 10 degrees hotter than the ground floor but it appears that the TRVs are working.

Am I destined to have a 10 degree differential between the 2 floors on cols days? Do I need more/larger radiators on the ground floor?

I should add that the thermostat is constantly on now.

ChrisJ

NJ

Where abouts are you in NJ?

I'm in Warren county.



I wouldn't install TRVs until you fix the enclosures. There is no getting away from that.

BobC

Cold first floor

Bak,



Is this a single pipe steam system? if so what make and model vents are on the radiators and what kind of main vent do you have on the steam main? What kind of thermostat are you using?



In general you want to vent the main fast and the radiators slowly. If the radiators have high capacity vents they will get hot before the TRV senses the temperature and throttles them back.



Bob

bak_phy

Danfoss TRVs

It's a 1 pipe system. The TRVs are Danfoss as is the vent.

The Thermostat is a honeywell vision pro which was given to the previous house owner by the utility. I found out the other day that the CPH was set to 5 which was the default rather than 1.



There are 3 vents on the main. 1 just past the middle, 1 close to end and one right by the boiler. They are all maid-o-mist. I can't tell the size but physically they look about the same as what I used to have on the radiators. There's no symbol on the top but the holes look like they are D's

bak_phy

had a pro look at it

I had a pro come out to have a look. Rather than just a few adjustments they want to do a bunch of stuff  the most expensive (~$3.5k) of which is repiping the entire boiler in order to get dryer steam. The current setup doesn't have a drop header, has copper pipes, and there's something with the dry return (wife talked to plumber) They also wanted to increase main vents (4 Gorton #2's)and replace the pressuretrol with a vaporstat to decrease pressure.

These things all seem like they should be done from the little knowledge that I have on steam systems, but I'm suddenly facing a $5k+ bill.  Is that reasonable? Will my system be that much better (more efficient  with better balance) to justify this? Could I get away with just replacing the vents myself?

Double D

Eventually someone will ask.

Post pictures of the boiler & near boiler piping. Make sure you stand back far enough.

Bill_78

I insulated basement piping

I have a 1 pipe steam oil system and having the same issue, even though i read Dan's book I am not fully understanding my system. Years ago I had alot of hammer and short cycles and posted here, someone from Baltimore came, put bug vents in the basement_Gortons and told me my headers were not plumbed right, things do not hammer any more. I decided the next year to insulate all pipes in basement and our 1st floor is now colder, the bedrooms will be 78 and the downstairs will be 67 and still calling for heat. I bought 10 adjustable air vents and swaped out one in out kitchen(which is the coldest room) and now need some help/advise on what to do with the other 4 radiators on the 1st floor or 2nd? we have acctully turned off 2 of the 4 on the 2nd floor and it still is to hot-so my questions....how do I get the 1st floor hotter and 2nd colder? I spend about $4000 a year on oil heat and have also seen posts on converting to gas, I have a v8 Burnam oil, anyone advise? and lastly, any new products to make my boiler work better/cheaper?

thanks

Bill In PA(near Gettysburg)

Paul48

One

of the guys at work had the same problem with his one-pipe system during the deep-freeze we just had. I made a copy of an EDR chart so he can survey his radiators. He is also drawing the house and adding the measurements ,so we can do a heat loss.The house is probably 1920's vintage, but he said something that bother me. He said the downstairs is all open, room to room, which suggests a lot of remodeling has been done, and maybe radiators removed. We shall see.

ChicagoCooperator

Open Plans

Opens plans were more common than people realize, but you're right to be wary of removed radiators. 

nz

I had similar issue

I had a very similar issue - not quite 12 degrees different - but it was 10.



I put TRVs in every radiator on the second floor at set them around what I had the thermostat (on the first floor) set to - around 68.



This helped dramatically, and now the house is generally within 1-2 degrees F difference.



As others pointed out, the radiator needs air to convect. I have radiators on my first floor in the walls, but there is an opening at the bottom and the top.

Dave in QCA

Attic Insulation is part of the cause

When the radiators were originally sized, they were intended to heat the upstairs rooms that had zero attic insulation, meaning the ceiling was very cold. Once attic insulation is added, the heat loss of the upstairs is dramatically reduced. I have a hot water system at home and the upstairs will be about 5 degrees warmer than the downstairs if all the radiators are on wide open.



In the case of the original post to this thread, the situation is made much worse by the enclosures on the radiators. There was a time when folks thought it made the room look better, but I for one appreciate the looks of the exposed radiators. I do paint them with paint that approximates the original bronze paint that was supplied by the radiator manufacturer. I know that paint reduces heat output theoretically, but it is minimal compared to an improperly constructed enclosure. And yes, there are types of enclosures that will actually improve the performance of the radiator, but the ones shown at the beginning of the tread are certainly not them.



I think you will need a 2-part solution. TRVs on the upstairs radiators and getting rid of or greatly modifying the enclosures downstairs.