swing joints

SteamedInDC

I've got a brief question, I would like to know if there is definitive source somewhere that I can find for a definition of a "swing joint" and how it is properly fabricated? My boiler has been installed with a welded header and welded "swing joints", the installer insist that the two elbows make up a swing joint, and from what I have read it is not only the elbows, but that the elbows SHOULD NOT be welded together and instead they SHOULD be fabricated from fittings. I've had several conversations with people on this topic and looked on this wall I haven't come up a definitive answer. The manufacturer's installation instructions (Weil-McLain) doesn't cover this very well. The best I have found are these quotes:



"At the top of each riser, there will be at least two fittings (elbows) which make a swing joint."

- Steam Heating" - Noel Murdough



"Provisions shall be made for the expansion and contraction of steam and hot water mains connected to boilers by providing substantial anchorage at suitable points, and by providing swing joints."

- para. HG-703.1 ASME Code



Thank you

ALIGA

can you post a pic

of your header.

SteamedInDC

swing joints

Attached are photos of the header, riser and equalizer. I've reviewed this with tech support at Weil-McLain and they have stated that this is not an acceptable installation and that it should be per their installation instructions. The last photo notes what tech support and an expert in steam systems concur is incorrect with the installation.

Paul48

No Good

There are welded headers that still make provisions for expansion. That configuration does not. As the header expands the pressure will be transfered directly the the boiler sections and the boiler will fail. Also, the riser between the boiler risers creates a collision of steam and produces wet steam.

SteamedInDC

swing joints

Thank you Paul48, I am glad that this forum has been created for people to gather information and knowledge. I'm still trying to work out a solution with the fabricator/installer of the header and and risers. I'll try to utilize tech support at Weil-McLain to support my concerns. I'll post here and let you know if we can come to an agreed upon solution.

ALIGA

i dont see an equalizer

i would call the installer back, and have them repipe with cast iron nipple and fittings.



this is how your weil should be piped:



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pZJPy8IpS58/UALt5jWntuI/AAAAAAAACBk/MfvxBxNgFrc/w1144-h858-no/DSC02092.JPG

Paul48

Steamed

Wait for some of the pros to get a look at that. There are some of the best in the business that hang out here. They will help.

SteamedInDC

swing joints

Thanks ALIGA for prompting me to post the photos. The equalizer is attached to the upper manifold as shown in the upper left corner of photo 4.

Some of the other concerns that have brought to the installers attention are:

1. the take off sequence of the pipes-

Per Dan Holohan's book, I bought this to the attention of the installer:

"when you use a boiler with more than one riser to the header make sure you make the takeoffs to the system between the last riser to the header and the drip equalizer. What you are trying to do is get the steam and the condensate moving in the same direction."

- "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", Dan Holohan

and this:

"if the steam is approaching the system piping from both directions there is no way the water can make it to the equalizer. It will just puddle up at the bull of the system takeoff tee and reduce the size of the header. That increases the steam's velocity and sucks water out of the boiler."

- "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", Dan Holohan

2. the height of the header.

The manufacturer makes it very clear that the header should be 24" from the starting water line and Dan also makes this clear.

the measurement of "24" from water line to bottom of header is KEY to producing dry steam. That water line should be near the middle of the gauge glass when the water is in its normal (starting) condition. This is measured when the boiler is off."

- "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", Dan Holohan

SteamedInDC

swing joints

nice job! I wish out pipes looked like this

ALIGA

i dont like the install

I am not a pro, but I have done the following on mine, and I think this is the minimum you need to do and not settle for anything less. you will pay for it either with a cracked header or cracked boiler, or expensive heating bills.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/images/posts/19264/resize_photo%201.JPG

gerry gill

not correct

I dont have a problem with the take off from the new header going to the old header, but the one on the boiler still has to be correct.

Steamhead

The right way to pipe a W-M 80 series steamer

see attached. Here's the thread the pics are in:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/147900/Steam-System-Rescue-at-the-Baltimore-Rescue-Mission

nicholas bonham-carter

Welded header problems

If that header were some distance away from the boiler trappings, and the intervening piping were threaded, then there would be the necessary strain relief against the forces of expansion an contraction. As it is now installed, the header forces can act directly on the sections of the boiler, pushing, or pulling them apart.

I am coming to the conclusion, that for a drop-header, a couple of feet from the boiler, some labor and material cost savings can be realized, by using a welded header, properly isolated, as I have said from the boiler block itself. These savings will enable the HO to get a vaporstat, and generous venting to make the new boiler work properly (craigslist boiler installers are you listening??).

The great advantage of a drop header is not only in its ability to slow down the steam, but also in its self-cleaning characteristics. All the oil on the surface of the boiler water will soon be blown into the drop-header, and be trapped in the equalizer, where a small valve can drain it off the surface of the water in there.

If the this drop-header is behind the boiler, then the later replacement of the boiler is much easier, as only the risers from the boiler need to be changed/reconfigured.--NBC

SteamedInDC

new to old header connection

Hi Gerry, thanks for your reply. What are your thoughts on the equalizer being attached to the upper (old) header rather than the (new) lower header? It seems like the water that makes its way into the header with the installed design drains back down one of the risers.

Hap_Hazzard

Only if you want

dry steam and years of efficient, trouble-free service. Who wants that?

jumper

a business opportunity?

Why doesn't somebody sell near boiler kits?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Swing Joints

The largest screwed fittings you can get for all practical reasons now are 4". I don't know too many supply house that stock anything larger although they are available for sure. You would probably be hard pressed to do anything larger than 4" because if you made a list of everything you needed they wouldn't have it in stock.

I have seen plenty of really old jobs with 6" and 8" threaded fittings.

 As far as welded headers go their is nothing wrong with them if done correctly. As others have posted they should be piped so as not to put strain on the boiler. Welded pipe and fittings will flex a little if enough distance is kept between the fittings.

On many boiler replacements it's 'get it connected as fast as possible" and "as long as the pipes are connected it will work"

those of us that know something about steam know this is not true

gerry gill

still need the equalizer

on the new boiler header..but the one from the old header could stay as it would only help..but the boilers 'real' header still needs to be proper.

JStar

Fittings

We install 4, 5, and 6" cast iron fittings all of the time. They are always in stock or a few days away.



The header needs to be the proper size. Get the fittings by any means necessary to make it the proper size.

SWEI

Business opportunity

I can see a semi-custom fab shop making money doing this.  Rack some 4", 6", and perhaps 8" tubing, a few boxes of matching hydroformed end caps, and a shelf full of Threadolets and you're in business.

EBEBRATT-Ed

4,5, 6" fittings

@Jstar so if you install a 6" header your going to screw it togeather instead of welding it?? Are you going to lug 6" pipe and fittings, a 161 threader a 300 or a 700 to drive, the oiler and the wrenches,  plus all the different size nipples your gonna need to get this thing togeather?? What if the job is 1 1/2 hrs from the shop?? Or are you going to measure and prefab??

Not me. a cutting torch, chop saw and a 200 amp Miller inverter stick machine.



Just wondering,

Ed

Canucker

I'm going to guess

That his answer will be, yes



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/147862/Another-Twin-System-6-Drop-Header

SteamedInDC

swing joints and header technical resource

I am still having difficulty with convincing the installer that the installation of the near boiler piping

1. doesn't meet the manufacturer's recommendations

2. where the 24" should be measured from in terms of the height of the header to the normal water level

3. that the main supply take off and equalizer placement are incorrect in relation to the risers.

4. I have cited the manufacturer's Installation Manual and the piping diagram, Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and others.



Is there an ASME text book that I can cite? or another industry-wide peer reviewed text book?

EBEBRATT-Ed

MFG. recomendations

MFG RECOMENDATIONS pretty much trumps everything. If he won't accept that I'm not sure what he will accept. The older ASME books show the steam piping I think. I will look through what I have.

Ed

JStar

Answer

Yes. A hundred times, yes.



Steam fittings need to move. Especially at the header. I will never weld steam piping.

SteamedInDC

mfg. recommendations

Thanks Ed, if you find something in the ASME books that you have, could you post the diagrams? or if you don't feel comfortable posting, let me know what you found including page # and I'll see if I can get a copy somewhere.

ALIGA

updates

Any updates on this?

SWEI

Welding a header

with threaded connections and pipe for both supplies and take-offs should allow enough movement?

Dave in QCA

Manufacturer's Minimum Recommendation

Here is a link to the manual for the WM 80 series. It makes the requirement pretty clear! Go to Page 17. http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/550-141-935_1009_80Manual.pdf





Also, image is my 680 install last year. My guys at J. L. Brady had no difficulty in working with 4" which connected to an older 5" header.