Ice storm problem - help please

fletch

We are 48 hours without power from the Toronto ice storm and have just heard we could easily be another 48. The house temperature is down to 45 and I'm getting worried about the radiant heating pipes throughout the walls and floors freezing before the electricity comes back. It's an old house (1940's) with the original copper pipe system. Should I try to drain it, do nothing and pray or is there something else I should be doing? Advice please.

Jean-David Beyer

do nothing and pray or ???

Last year during storm Sandy, my power went out, and it was quite cold outside.

Fortunately my house is well insulated. But the power was off for 6 1/2 days and after a couple of days, the temperature inside the house went down to about 58F, and that is too cold for me even with a sweater on. Most of the time it was a little above freezing outside, but I worried about having to swap out my concrete slab with all that copper tubing in it if it froze up. So I escaped.



When my new boiler was put in, I asked the contractor if I should have him put anti-freeze in the system and he said no. But he is my former contractor for various reasons, and this would just have been added to the list.



I was having dinner in a restaurant a few days later and there was a couple at the next table and we were kiittzing about the storm. He asked what I had done for a living, and I asked him the same thing. He said he sold Kohler natural gas fueled backup generators. I asked him what they tended to cost, etc. and ultimately had his company install one for me. So I still do not have anti-freeze in my system.



As far as the power quality from the generator is concerned, it claims it is pretty good and better than their competition. That may well be true. In any case, they commissioned my generator one Wednesday, and the power went off that Saturday. Now my boiler is on 24/7/52 since it also supplies my hot water with an indirect. I do not know if the boiler fired up or not, but it sure did not blow out the control board. If power goes out when it is really cold out, I will know. That generator even has a carburettor heater in it for really cold weather. They have optional battery and crankcase heaters too, but the man said they are not required here in New Jersey. Mine is one of these:



http://www.kohlergenerators.com/home-generators/products/14RESA



So I just looked at the Toronto weather forecast for the next 10 days and you better do more than pray unless you have a direct line to your god.



It looks kind-of bad up there:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25499753

ScrewLoose

Better safer; rather than sorry.

If there is ever any doubt, it is worth some aggravation NOW to drain the system and to later refill the system, than to wait and have a catastrophe and have pipes burst. 

Paul Pollets

antifreeze

Non-toxic boiler Antifreeze can be pumped into the system using a transfer pump and small generator.

jumper

Paul has good idea

I've been thinking about this all day. Draining system will probably leave enough water in low spots to give you grief. Even a little amount of antifreeze can help. If you have radiant floor heating without insulation on ground, ground heat may save your bacon. Also there's a big energy difference between 32° and 31.9° so go TorontoHydro go.

Jean-David Beyer

Remember: propylene glycol, not car radiator anti-freeze.

It costs more, but is way less toxic. Also, get some that has the needed inhibitors, etc., for the metal(s) used in your system. Especially if your HX is aluminum.

Gordy

Continuous circulation

Can anyone reasonably calculate how much time that would buy. What kind of temps is Toronto have in the next 48 hours?

Jean-David Beyer

What kind of temps is Toronto have in the next 48 hours?

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/canada/ontario/toronto



N.B.: these are in Centigrade.

Tom_133

A small generator

Is about a thousand bucks, like a Honda si2000 (i think thats the name of it ). Not cheap but cheaper than having your house freeze. PLEASE dont run the generator in the house!!!! Generator outside, run shortest extension cord possible with a ground outside to the unit just plug in your heating system and refrigerator and make sure they cant be back feed from the power when it comes back on. So plug in refrigerator direct, and make a cord for your boiler circuit and plug it into generator direct. When power comes back on simply plug fridge back in to the wall and replace wiring to boiler.

jumper

just guessing

I figure even one per cent will help. Hopefully it will diffuse in time throughout system. If you can't get into water feed and you have old fashioned expansion tank, isolate it,drain it, and pump some glycol into it. Then open isolating valve. Having adapters for hose to pipe thread are helpful if you can find them when you need them.

fletch

You guys rock!

System drained. Power back on 3 hours later. All' swell. Thanks for the help. Thinking about that generator

Gordy

Murphy's law

If you had not drained it power would have been on line three days later to late.



Merry Xmas

jumper

dowtherm

So how many people will buy some buckets of antifreeze, a hand pump, and prepare for the next bad time? How many building managers have some inhibitor added each spring? Out of sight,out of mind.....

MechTech_2

Toronto Ice Storm

I'm in the same boat as Fletch just north of Toronto in Richmond Hill, with a wall hung combo boiler and all radiant in-floor. However, I'm a hydronic gear head and I'm running my entire system off my Ford Escape! My boiler draws 170 watts (including internal pump) and my Wilo Star 16 secondary pump draws 56 watts. My Escape has one 110VAC 150 watt output which is running my secondary pump, and I found my old 280 watt DC-AC inverter which is plugged into the cigarette lighter running my boiler. The boiler's running like a dream without skipping a beat.

Steve Garson_2

Antifreeze

Another thought: What would happen if the power failed while you are away on vacation for a week? Prepare for the worst and sleep easy.