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Any opinions?

Bervera
Bervera Member Posts: 1
in THE MAIN WALL
Good Day All! I am new to posting on "The Wall" and am usually a reader/digester of information. I am currently changing over my boiler setup/ piping from primary-secondary to a Hydraulic separator/ loss loss header with "short and fat" Headers. Heat source= Buderus G115/28 with a Babington Airtronic Burner. Loads= 1 zone Hydro- air. 3 zones ( 9 loops) radiant floor. Boiler contol/ water temperature regulation= Tekmar 361. Everything has worked fairly well with the "old" setup ( Buderus GA124, Wirsbo pro 101 w/ Belimo 3 way mixing valve and P/S piping. My question is I have a Buderus LT160/2 that I do need for DHW. I would like to use the indirects 42 gallon capacity for a thermal buffer. Any thoughts or opinions on how to plumb? I was considering firing the boiler into the indirects hot water coil and using the 42 gallons as my thermal mass/ buffer for the load side. I have everything for 2 complete systems ( water feed, circulator, expansion tank, etc.). I do not want to purchase a Thermomax or Ergomax. I believe that I can pipe the Buderus to accomplish what I need to do but I an not an expert wethead:)  ! Thanks in advance to any opinions! I am open to any and all suggestions! 

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,547
    Indirect buffer

    I'm assuming you're gonna use the indirect for domestic and you're talking about pulling from the hydronic side for space heating, not the potable side?



    You can Tee into the supply and return lines at the indirect. You'll pull the supply for SH from the Tee that's connected on the return to the boiler and return SH into the supply to the indirect. You'll obviously need an additional circ for SH and flow checks in both the existing and new circuits. Can you picture that?



    You'll also want a tempering valve on the domestic side going to the fixtures because you're gonna have to keep the tank hotter.



    Set the controls up so that the indirect and SH circ's both can run when the SH zone calls, but only the domestic charging circ runs on a domestic call.



    Your SH output will be limited by the indirects heat transfer capacity as well as it's circ's and piping's capacity.



    I m on my IPad and don't have a drawing stored, but Triangle Tube has a drawing of this in their applications manual.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    edited December 2013
    Any opinions / Buderus Buffer

    Thanks for your opinion ironman! I do not to need the Buderus LT indirect for DHW. I was thinking  about having 2 separate systems attached to the indirect. 1. The boiler attached to the indirects hot water coil ( as would be for DHW heating. 2. The load side ( hydro-air, radiant floor) hooked to the 42 gallon buffer/ indirect. Both sides will have their own circs, expansion, water feed , etc. This way both sides of the tank will never see oxygenated H2O/ Minimal anyway! Any and all opinions are appreciated! Thanks
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Seems like

    Seems like you are using a sledge hammer for a tack nail. Why are you doing this? What is the problem with your currant system?



    Rob
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    response to Rob G/ Babington Burner

    Hello Rob G ! I had the previous system installed for approx. 8-10 years . What I am attempting to do is strictly for long term energy efficiency. 1. I am eliminating the the radiant floor circ. and differential by pass valve and replacing with a Grundfos Alpha. 2. I was never totally impressed with the response time and undershoot/ overshoot of the Wirsbo pro mix 101/ belimo 3 way valve mixing setup ( converting to Tekmar 361 injection mixing). 3. I want the thermal storage/ buffer of the 42 gallon Buderus LT for constant temps going to the Hydro-air coil. 4. Are you familiar with a Babington Airtronic Burner? ( If not, Please google and do a little reading about how the burner can be adjusted from 30,000 BTU's - 80,000 BTU's with a turn of a knob). I want to be able to fire the Babington burner at a low firing rate to increase my burn times and that is where the Buffer tank that I am placing in the system comes into play. The buffer will accept the lower/ longer firing rate to increase fuel efficiency.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Babington Airtronic Burner

    http://www.babingtontechnology.com/products/airtronic-burner.html looks like it is mostly used for shipboard foodservice?  Intriguing...
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    edited December 2013
    Babington Burner/ Intriguing!!!!!

    Hello SWEI ! Yes these units are very intriguing! Please do a search for " Sippin energy products + Babingto burner + NORA" and there was a study done in 2001-2002 on these burners and their capabilities. These units can burn petroleum distillate fuels as cleanly as NG. I have spoken to the owner/ inventor of these burners and he is a very intriguing person as well. One very nice person. I have shown these units to a few HVAC people along with a few engineers and they are all amazed at the capabilities of these units. They all ask why these are not more readily available. After reading the study, the answer will be clear pertaining to the previous inquiry. If you do a you tube search of "Babington Technology oil spill solution" you should be able to locate an interview of the owner/inventor done by a local N.C. TV station near their manufacturing facility. Thanks and have a nice day !
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    edited December 2013
    Burner

    That burner sounds to good to be true. How did you get it with your boiler? I am a little confused on the indirect use. Do you already have the indirects and are or aren't you going to  use them for domestic hot water? Are you Bervera and devo?
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    Babington/ RobG

    Hello again RobG! I am truly surprised that there hasn't been  any mention of this burner in all the previous postings on this site. Mr Babington has had this technology available for a very long time. He was in popular mechanics  or popular science in 1973, if I remember correctly, with his invention. He also has used the technology for medical nebulizers. Please refer to their website and look under history of the company. If you know how to do an internet archived site search, you can find a little info. than is available in the general public domain. I had acquired my "first" burner approx. 3-4 years ago separately from the boiler. These units become available from time to time on the open secondary market. You have to search high and low to find these though. I had just recently found and purchased 2 of these units, brand new never used, for backup:)  The owners had no idea what they had in their possession. I had paid the owners a very reasonable price  even though I could have bartered for  a lower dollar amount. I have used this burner to combust waste oil, vegetable oil, vegetable oil/ fuel oil mixture, etc. I am currently going to use this unit with straight diesel. I have become tired of any  maintenance/ cleaning. I have been experimenting with my first burner for approx. 3 years with all types for combustable fuel mixtures. I was able to do this because I had the Buderus GA 124 boiler along with a Buderus Logano wood boiler that I had the Babington mounted in. 3 winters of Research and development.  The indirect issue. Yes, I already have the indirect and do not care about using it for DHW. I just want to use the tanks 42 gallon capacity for thermal storage and was inquiring about the most efficient way of plumbing it. I have several ideas in my mind and wanted some expert opinions.I am open to any and all suggestions! Bervera or Devo? Both! I guess:) I was previously registered on this site but can't remember posting anything, I tried to register the other day about my inquiry and had some trouble with my password and Dan had to help me get logged on and this is how both names have come up. I really don't know why. Thanks RobG! Have a nice day! 
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Adjusting the Babington

    can it be done with an external control signal?  If so, I believe there could be a large market opportunity.
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    SWEI/Babington

    Hello SWEI! Yes the only thing to fire these units is to apply 110 volt to the burner, That's it! These units use 150 Watts to operate. Not a misprint! 150 watts. I should have 3x15-58 Grundfos circs and the Grundfos Alpha circ and the burner. In case of a power failure, I can heat my home with a very small generator, minus the blower for the fan coil unit. These burners have a built in air compressor on the electrical motor. The bore is about the size of a quarter with the stroke = 1/4" for the atomization air. These units self prime and use a single fuel line. If you want to hook one of these up, connect 110volts and a fuel line and you have  "High" efficiency combustion. Please refer back to my earlier post about the NORA published study/ Gary Sippin. If anyone is curious , Please read the study, Very interesting ! If anyone would like to see some close up pictures of the burner, Please inquire and maybe I can post some and show some of the "crown jewels" of the burner and its operational theory! These burners have 2 adjustments ( A combustion air knob and a fuel flow screw /knob). You set the combustion air setting to 9-10 on the dial and turn the fuel control flow knob for whatever BTU output you need to obtain ( 30,000Btu's- 80,000 BTU's )  Very simple! Mr.Babington has stated that these will combust a fuel mix that has 50% water contamination. Yes, I have done that experiment and Yes, the burner combusts the mixture.  Thanks and have a nice day! 
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    Babington Pictures

    Here are a few pics, nothing fancy, got an old camera, sorry for the lack of clear detail! 
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    Babington

    Picture 1= atomization /combustion head There are 2 small convex heads with laser cut slits in them. fuel flows over the atomizer bullets and clean air exits through the 2 laser slits and ruptures the film of fuel for micron size particle atomization. Picture 2= air and fuel settings A. Black knob( combustion air control)  set at 9-10 and leave alone. B. Silver slotted knob/ Fuel flow setting( make any output you want between 30k and 80k BTU's. Picture 3= Babington airtronic + combustion  head + Oil burner primary control test box. ( Got Trouble? remove 1 screw holding primary controller and plug this in and 1 button test the compressor, 1 button test the ignition, 1 button test the fuel pump output). Picture 4= side view of burner/ built in  compressor head for atomization air. Have a nice day! 
  • devo
    devo Member Posts: 20
    Buderus LT/Piping/ Opinions?

    Getting back to my original inquiry, Does anyone have any opinions and/or suggestions on piping my indirect Buderus LT for thermal storage/ buffer? Thanks in advance! Have a nice day! 
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Turning the fuel control flow knob

    with a motorized actuator, under the control of an external signal is what we need.
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