water hammer, short cycling, lots of water feeding, uneven heat, trap issues, gurgling & other o

livinthesteamdream

To start, below is the link to my previous post which his pics of my boiler and piping which everyone agrees is not the best. I have a 2-pipe system with traps, and I'm slowly eliminating the vents that were installed on many of the radiators.

I have all the post title issues. I found one steam leak to a radiator and just had all of that re-plumbed. However, I'm still getting a lot of water feeding. My boiler cycles around 3-5 times each time it is needed, and when I'm in a certain location of the house I can hear the water feeder kick on at least twice during those cycles. I'm concerned about oxygen corrosion in my 2 yr old Burnham boiler. How quickly does that happen? Additionally, is it possible the feeder isn't taking into consideration the fact that condensate will return and having a wait period or do I most likely have an additional leak(s)? Also, what causes the short-cycling and how do I stop that?

My water hammer has continued to get worse through the season. The boiler has been serviced, but do I need to have the water flushed and have it all cleaned out? Or would it just need skimmed?

I have some radiators that I constantly hear a "moving steam" sound in so my untrained guess would be that my trap has failed and I'm pumping steam through the trap. I have mainly Hoffman 18s as well as some 17Cs, but I wanted to know which trap kits would be best. I've seen the Tunstall kits for roughly $60 or the Barnes and Jones kits for just over $40. What trap kits would you use, and aside from the moving steam sound rads where should I start? I'm sure they haven't been replaced in over a decade! Or should I just do radiator inlet orifices and skip the trap maintenance altogether?

PLEASE HELP!

<a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/148067/HELP-New-to-steam-and-have-some-issues">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/148067/HELP-New-to-steam-and-have-some-issues</a>

Jamie Hall

Hard to find a place to start...

First things first, though.  Check your pressure.  Set it as low as you can, if you are using a pressuretrol -- with care you should be able to get down to .5 cutin, 1.5 cutout, but even if you have to go to 1 and 2 that will help.



Second, the short cycling while running very very much suggests major venting problems (although it could also be a low water safety thing too, see next paragraph).  You either need big crossover traps at the end of each steam main to the corresponding dry return, or big main vents at the ends of the steam mains.  Either way, you need good big vents at the ends of the dry returns nearest the boiler.



Third, the automatic water feeder is at least keeping you from dry firing the boiler.  You don't mention whether the boiler is ever over filled, but the fact that you don't mention having to drain the boiler suggests that it isn't, and that the feeder is compensating for water loss.  That much water loss, however, is suggestive of a really serious leak or leaks somewhere on the steam side of the system.  I note that the low water cutoff may be the cause of the short cycling, if you really are losing a lot of steam somewhere.



Fourth, you can check the traps by checking the return lines.  They can be hot -- say up to 180 or 200 even -- but they shouldn't be steam hot.  If they are steam hot, steam is blowing by and they need to be repaired.  Either make of replacement is fine.  Don't bother to repair them, though, if your pressure is over 3 psi -- they will just fail again.



There's a start.  Then we can think about water hammer and so on...

livinthesteamdream

TWO pressuretrols...how do I set them?

I have 2 pressuretrols. 1 is near the top left and just says Main Pressure. The other on the right is a subtractive one so I believe I had the differential set to 1.5 psi and the main set to 2 to allow it to go between .5 and 2 PSI. The top left pressuretrol is also labeled as MAIN. What do I do with that one? I'll run around through all my cellars with a flashlight to try to find steam leaks. It sounds like I have another large one that I'm unable to easily see.

My main venting is indeed very poor. I don't even know where to start with that...

livinthesteamdream

haven't seen overfeeding, but unsure of leak source(s)

Also I don't notice any overfeeding and my gauge is typically mid way full as far as the glass is concerned. It is a bit cloudy, though. I don't notice any crazy big steam leaks so I can't explain the water loss. I did just remove 4 vents from my two pipe radiators as they were letting out steam as well, but it shouldn't be that much steam. The leak in my laundry room was easily seen.

Jamie Hall

Two pressuretrols

are a very good idea.  The one on the right is set about right for the time being.  The one on the left should be set to a higher pressure -- say 5 psi -- and is a safety in case the regular one doesn't do it's thing.  The one on the left may be a manual reset.



As to the leaks -- if you aren't seeing an overfill condition, you surely do have a leak somewhere, and it is well worth finding as all that water you are feeding isn't doing your boiler any good at all.  It probably is not a condensate leak -- if it were, you would notice the water level dropping when the boiler was off, as well as when it was running.



Even though the boiler is only two years old, it might be worth checking for a steam leak in the boiler.  This is most easily done by just going outside when it's running and looking at the stack -- you should see, at most, a thin wispy bit of condensation, and that only on very cold or damp days.  If you see considerable white "smoke", that's not good.



The steam rushing sounds you mention in your first post of this thread, by the way, are more likely condensate sloshing about -- and suggest (along with the water hammer!) that there are places which aren't pitched properly to drain the condensate.  Worth checking.

livinthesteamdream

Pressure is set correctly...what's next?

I checked and you're correct about the other pressuretrol. It is listed as main with a manual reset and it is set to 5 PSI so I'm actually okay on the pressure. Am I good to work on the traps after pitching correctly since the pressure is in line?

I'm a bit nervous about checking out the chimney smoke. I checked tonight, but I couldn't see any white. However, the sky is pretty white already with the light snow we have. I'll check again tomorrow, but I'm hoping that's not the case!

As far as the main vents are concerned, I'm almost positive there isn't a whole lot in that regard. I have two of the ones in the pic in the main furnace section of my cellar, but I see no other vents at all except for those that I've removed from radiators. Where/how do I start with main vents?

Jamie Hall

Do you have

a copy of the Lost Art of Steam Heating?  Available from the "shop" tab here.  It is very much worth having, and reading rather closely.  It isn't difficult reading, but it will help you understand your system, which is always a plus!



In fact, we will need to know more about exactly how your system is set up -- away from the boiler -- to really get clear on what you need in the way of main venting.  That is because in two pipe or vapour steam systems, there are two basic ways of doing it.  In either approach, you need to have vents on the dry returns, usually right near the boiler where they turn down and go into whatever wet returns you have.  Those are to allow air to get out of the dry returns, because that is where the air which is in the radiators goes.  Some systems are piped with what are called crossover traps -- basically the same as a radiator trap, but pipe higher than the main -- between the ends of the steam mains and the ends of the dry returns.  If you have those -- assuming they are working -- you don't need vents on the steam mains.  Otherwise, you need vents on the ends of the steam mains, to help steam get there quickly and evenly.  They are sized according to the length and diameter of the mains.



And while you are poking about in the basement, this is a very good time to make sure that all of the steam piping is pitched so that water can get back to the boiler.  I can't be more specific than that, as there are as many ways to pipe things as there are installations, but the whole idea is that must be nowhere in the system where water can collect.  Check not only for pitch -- particularly on runouts to individual radiators -- but also check for low spots or sags.  Pipe hangers do give way...



Plan on insulating all the steam mains you can find, by the way, if they aren't already.

Dennis Foley

Boiler installation

I just looked at your pictures. That installation, and the near boiler piping, is a real mess. If I was to look at it in person, I would recommend re placing most of the near boiler piping. You will never get this under control until you fix that. No amount of adjustments, steam trap repairs, etc. will make a badly installed boiler perform.

In your previous posts, someone pointed you to the Burnham install diagrams. That is what you need. You must have many gallons of water sloshing around in the piping and radiators with the way this boiler is installed.

Once you fix the boiler installation, then fix the steam traps.

As Dan says, near boiler piping is where the problems are born.

livinthesteamdream

water feeding/short cycling

I confirmed last night that the short cycling is due to the drop in water level. It typicaly does this 3 to 5 times before satisfying the thermostat. Would this near boiler piping account for that much water loss? I still have no evidence of overfeeding, but I cannot find another point of loss. I'm going to check the chimney again when I get home after work today but it's tough to discern any white coming out. I'm quite worried about a boiler leak at this point since I can't find another source of the leak. I mean, I should have some sign of moisture with a leak of this magnitude right? I found one small area of moisture from a wet return on the bsmt floor, but there wasn't even a puddle. Just a little water on the rusty pipe.



Oh yeah, I did buy all the steam books, but I only finished We Got Steam. I started the Greening Steam book, but I suppose for more "nuts and bolts" I should read the one Jamie suggested?

BobC

Yes

The Lost Art of Steam Heating has all the information you need to understand how steam heat works. If that book were printed on gold leaf, and priced to reflect that, it would still be well worth the price.



Bob

livinthesteamdream

no white smoke as far as I can tell!

Ok, so I think I confirmed that I had no white steam coming out of the chimney while the boiler was running. The system didn't seem to short cycle as much this evening as it typically does. I notice it more at night, though. Anyway, I'll start on the Lost Art of Steam Heating instead of Greening Steam right now.

My basement is divided into 3 different areas, and I couldn't find any leaks at all. I heard a lot of air back under the one crawlspace area, but it sounded more like a vent. I doubt that one has been changed in quite some time so if it has failed could it account for water loss to the extent that it would cause the shortcycle/water feeding issue I'm experiencing? I'm not seeing any big moisture problem anywhere like I did with the last leak...I mean it tore my laundry room up and even with 2 windows open moisture beaded up everywhere.

Is there any special advice on searching for hidden leaks?

livinthesteamdream

Please list all mistakes with the near boiler piping?

I need to confront the installer on this. Since it's been 2 years and I didn't own the property at that time, I'm not sure if they'll do anything about it.

From what I've heard from you guys and read these are some of the issues:

1) risers rise up into header as opposed to entering from the side or dropping down into the header

2) 2 steam mains leave the header between the risers as opposed to at the end creating "wet" steam

3) It looks like a steam main comes out of the return or equalizer pipe again (I assume) creating wetter steam

Am I way off base here? Please point out all that you can see that is wrong as I want to have my ducks in a row before bringing it up to them as they're a large local business.