No return and banging pipes

heatbabe

We have been doing extensive reno on our basement and I have 3 questions:

My contractor told me that in order to free up floor space we could remove our return pipes to our steam boiler as long as the system was pitched properly. Is this ok?

Everything is pitched properly however there is one section that is still banging loudly and I hear water rushing through it. What is the cause of this?

When the cycle is over the gauge glass is always filled up to the top even though I keep draining it to be halfway down. Why is this happening and is it a problem?

Mark N

Return

What do you mean you removed your return pipe? How is the water getting back to the boiler?

Paul48

Pitch

When you say everything is pitched correctly.....How are the mains pitched?Down..going away from the boiler...or up? You have to have a return for each main, or the condensate can't "return" to the boiler. There are different configurations of piping, but all have a return or returns.

steamedchicago

pictures?

Can you post pictures of your boiler and its piping?  That will make it much clearer what butchery has been done to your poor boiler. 



I have a horrible feeling that the contractor removed all the returns, and the condensate is trying to get back in through the header or equalizer  That's not going to work, and could explain why your boiler is always full: the condensate can't back to the boiler while ti's making steam, and the automatic water feeder is topping it up. 



 

Jamie Hall

Was this originally

a one pipe or two pipe system?  It makes a difference...



If I assume it was a one pipe system, and you removed the return pipe or pipes, and you didn't re-pitch all the mains, you have a problem  Possibly a big problem.



Originally all the mains would have been pitched to those returns.  Condensate from the pipes and the radiators would flow along the pipes to the returns, then through the returns back to the boiler.  With the returns gone, that water has to find another way back to the boiler, which it apparently can't do easily (that's your overfilling problem).  Furthermore, while it's trying to get back to the boiler, the steam is trying to get out to the radiators, and they fight.  That's you water hammer problem.



OK.  If all that is so, and you can't restore the mains they way they were -- and should be -- the solution is to re-pipe all the mains as counterflow mains.  This may mean simply re-ptiching them all so that they can drain to a return to the boiler right near the boiler and modifying the near boiler piping to suit.  However, if they were parallel flow -- that is the returns were at or near the ends of the mains -- you may have to not only repitch them to flow towards the boiler rather than away, but replace them with one pipe size larger.



Or, of course, you could put things back the way they were intended to be before your plumber got after them.



Either way, I doubt very much if it is a suitable job for a homeowner, and I regret to say that it does not sound like a suitable job for the plumber you reference.  You might look under Find a Contractor -- look by State, not zip code -- to see if there is a good steam contractor nearby who could help you out.

BobC

Maybe

the boiler has an automatic water feeder that is being triggered as the boiler is building steam and the condensing steam is slow returning BUT once it does return it's flooding the boiler.



We need to know which way the steam main used to slope (high at the boiler or at the far end) and how it slopes after all the work. The entire length of the steam main and all the radiator piping has to be gone over to make sure it all is sloping the right way so water can find it's way back to the boiler. A level should be used and look for any dips in the piping runs that might be causing the banging.



We also have to know how large a system this is, how many radiators and what kind and model of boiler is installed. Also what length is the steam main and what size pipe is it.



Bob

heatbabe

No return and banging pipes

They are piched down towards the boiler

heatbabe

was this originally

It was/is a one pipe system. The returns were removed with the explanation that with proper pitch the condensate would return back to the boiler. There are 2 headers or mains- one is working perfectly but the other is banging in one spot.

heatbabe

pictures?

Your feeling is correct. The way it was explained to me was that the condensate makes it way to back to the boiler with proper pitch  in the same exact pipes the steam goes through. Since steam is lighter than water they will not hammer and it should all work the same way returns work.

Paul48

Systems

http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Hoffman/Steam_Vents/Basic_Steam_Heating_Systems_1_2_Pipe.pdf

heatbabe

systems

Thanks. I still do not understand why it can't work the current way I have it

heatbabe

systems

Thanks. I still do not understand why it can't work the current way I have it

Mark N

Counterflow

Your system was originally designed to parallel flow with returns. By removing the returns and pitching the mains back toward the boiler you turned it into a counter flow system. The pipe sizes in counterflow are larger than parallel flow. Did you increase the size of the mains?

heatbabe

counterflow

I believe they kept the mains as is. Basically they tried to move all pipes against walls so that I'd have ceiling space.

Can I just add a return back and call it a day?

Mark N

Steam Pro

I would bring someone in who knows steam. Where are you located. Use the find a contractor up at the top of the page.

Paul48

Basically

As soon as the steam leaves the boiler, it begins condensing back into water. Every pipe, and even your radiators are pitched to direct that condensate back to the return. Now, there are different configurations that allow for that, but they will fall within one of the diagrams, shown in the link I provided. Your system may seem to be working fine ( in part), but if you are not getting the condensate out of the system, it is costing you money. It collects in the mains, and cools the steam more rapidly, which make condensate faster, and that doesn't heat your radiators.The boiler runs longer to deliver enough steam to the radiators to heat the house and satisfy the thermostat.

heatbabe

adding a return

where is the latest point on the main that I can add a return?

Paul48

Need

You need to bring in a team pro to figure out how your system has been cobbled up. The help you will recieve will save you money in the long run, and the pro can help you with any long-standing issues you may have.

vaporvac

Get a pro in!

Hi heatbabe,

Another homeowner here. ..it does seem you need a pro to take a look. You mentioned your contractor who was helping finish your basement did this work...I'm assuming he wasn't a steam person. Unfortunately, all the original piping was put there for a reason in very specific sizes suited to your individual space. I read where some people do change it, but it needs to be done correctly to the proper specs, pipe diameters, pitch, etc.



As mentioned above, you may think half of it works well, but that may not be true. Steam is forgiving to a degree, but it's costing you.



If you have a pro nearby, just bite the bullet. . We've been installing a new system and now that we want someone to do the venting and burners, they're telling us it was a mistake to follow the manufacturer's recommended piping because steam piping is an art and you can only use the same kind of boiler as the old one. (Not true!) Get someone who knows what they're talking about. Colleen

Unknown

you let a remodling

You let a remodeling contractor do your steam heating work.. same thing I've seen happened over and over... according to the interior designer, those radiator in bathroom or kitchen will screw up my 'work'.. time for you to get a real steam pro and billed to your 'expert' remodeler... by the way, wondering what you use for heat in basement after remodeled?