Flow issue

smittyal06

I have  hot water coming from a plate exchanger to 3 different zones that are run on three different pumps. In one zone I have 6 supply and 6 return lines. If I open 1 return and 1 supply line, the line heats well. If I open another, it gets warm, but not hot like the first. And if I open a third, it doesn't even get warm.I tried a new circulating pump, but that didn't do the trick. Any suggestions?



I did purge each line. And I ran each line by itself and each line gets hot when run alone. It is just when you try to open multiple lines that it doesn't seem to be flowing properly through each.

Zman

Details

How long are the runs?

What diameter tubing?

Which circulator?

Inslab?

Carl

Weezbo

TakeKetDeezy!

When was this commissioned into service?

take a breath turn it all on 72 and see you here tamale.

Weezbo.

if you have a picture of this lash up that would be a plus write down what the temps going thru any and all gauges are today and same thing tomorrow.

....

could be just about any aspect right about now ...a pic of the plate exchanger heat source is also really helpful.

after you do that take a look at FLAT PLATE heat exchangers on the web..

smittyal06

Details

300'

1/2" tubing in joist run down and back per joist.

The new pump I tried is a Bell and Gossett NRF-22 - This replaced a Grundfos UPS15-58FC. I am not sure if this pump was bad, but I thought it may be the issue.

smittyal06

Not now!

Hard to take it easy when it is -20 and my house won't get above 50 degrees. This has been going on since winter began. I can't seem to get a heating guy to show up. I just tried the new pump last night. Another reason I think not all will be fine is because if I turn on the pump for the upstairs level, it steals the hot water from the other pump and no water is really circulating through the main level which is the level of my original question. And the same thing happens on the upper level. One line works good, but when I have 2 running, they don't seem to work.

Weezbo

where do you live ?

maybe you are close by..



otherwise you can only get out of a flat plate what it is designed to deliver providing it is piped correctly and a Group of other minor technicalities .

ok forget FLAT PLATE where there is plenty of information on sizing and a free ap to determine what you may need .. look up Taco X block ,

smittyal06

Live

Northern WI

They seem spendy for having things already there.

Weezbo

ok, you are a bit far for a service run ..

what then is the size of the heat exchanger and do you have glycol on one side of it ,and if so what precentage , what is the gpm of flow of the bell and gosset ?



i live in Alaska outside of the town of North Pole , and basically what i am saying is with all of them running ( Circs) full time , non stop, on both sides of the heat exchanger ,

the most you can get out of it in a day is the most that you can get out of it in a day .



the numbers help me determine what is happening ,

for a given period of time ...

then ,

if the plate can produce more or the heatsource can be ramped or if the system finds an equilibrium then ,

with the information of the system's " Home"

the remainder of the variables have a chance to be collected during the existing time the system working as it is, starts to fill in the blanks on what to do.



its past pumpkin hr here and i didn't turn orange so , i came back ,

your flow rates might not be right on either side of the plate do you have strainers on the lines ?

a check against flow on the houseside of the mix ?

if so , maybe you could do a small experiment with your transfer pump on the house side send water into the field with it and all circs running for like ten mins just let them roll....that way by using a bigger hammer your purge pump will pull thru the heat exchanger and pump into the zones thru the circs like they didn't exist for a while sort of equalizing all flows check on the boiler return to see if it is still reading that it is hot ..

if it cools down in a heart beat and cant keep up with your purge pump you will have a new clue ... if it stays hot and the heat is just roaring thru the zones then you have a different clue if ,

both sides drop off and in ten mins you don't have heat on the returns of every zone ,

then it means that it is likely more than a simple circ issue and involves the piping arrangement that you have as well.

because each loop thru the emitters would be seeing just about the same flow pumping in series that way .

plus it will strip heat thru that heat exchanger like no body's business ...then unplug your circ . lock both the purge before and after the check and see how long the plate excanger takes to catch up again on the return side ...



i put boiler drains all over the place for a this reason for fastest response time for a guy with a no heat call arriving on the scene . not only can he read the gauges he can force feed btus everywhere ..



boilers sometimes not crazy keen on that type of deal so you would have to bump up your boiler bypass or system by pass to wide open and refrain from dropping the boiler in the dirt.



i sank a boiler down into the snow covered frozen gravel over night once ... which was pretty notable as to the type of conditions we install boilers while buildings are under construction here ... all i can say is the burner was approaching the ground lol..

and the wirsbo pex is some remarkable product ... we coulldnt pour concrete in the garage floor because the gable ends were off both sides of it so with some insulation and poly sheathing by my friends the carpenters , and some electrical by the electricians and a bit of help from the sheetrockers all of us managed to get the garage where it would hold heat and the boiler could go some of the guys were plenty happy we got some large steam and hydronic unit heaters functioning before we all went home that night ... any way ...



you could give it a go and then work on getting the most btus thru the heatexchanger from the boiler and the most into the field with the circs that you have , first , then take a look at what needs to be ....especially if its cold .

the more btus into the building the better ...

if you choose the best flow from the boiler and the next best for the last circ off your header and the next best next to it and the weebly est one for the first that sees heat off the heat exchanger then the battle of the pumps might balance out a bit better it is difficult to say how better though because the only thing we know for sure is no two things are the same and everything is different.

by the way when i re did some pipe at a wood boiler a few years back the fittings and pipe were rivaling some pretty close micron filtration of the water molecules thru the passageways... one piece of pipe you could see day light at the right angle

the 90 that came out and turned down was way bad...

so, what i did was up size the fittings out od the boiler to the pump and the same at the heat exchanger coils i used female adaptor increaser fittings on both coils and upsized the header , inside i used some different deal called a RMB by Taco to get as much as i could out of that ,.....

it moves along about half of heat exchanger you have ..it has a 005 and a 008 and is a little different than the X block i mentioned earlier from Taco.





that i will say it is proof that it is the transfer of BTUs vs flow hands down .

flow just is the dispersal .... the pipe sizes and fittings and cleanliness of the fluid before it hits a heat exchanger is a big deal .

you have to figure open to air , Lots of heat, plenty of water bearing clean O ,

plenty of iron.... , Suddenly dirtcals or discals with outside magnets vs strainers staring to sound better and better yah?



i am inclined to agree that everything that you read here so far was ," Right way Charlie."

the pex from the wood boiler can probably carry more gpm the bind up as it were is when it hits all the temp and therefore pressure differential of both combined forces and flow thru the plate exchanger ..



to be honest , i even believe in making an insulated jacket for them with a tin cover with tabs so i can screw it to a wall or whatever painting them always looks good too.

what we need though is to get the details worked out on a few things and pictures help.. someone told me how to do print screen i don,t have much use for it so it sort of eludes me at the moment .. real pics i used to scan then make go to my desk top and then add to the messages ..those worked good till the scanner went on the fritz.

well i hope you get more heat into the building once this wind blows over central interior Canada and cold starts to drop down out of the arctic ...it hunts heat sources lol..namely the Warm fuzzy little human beings and furry critters : ))

smittyal06

Run

I believe it is a 225,000 BTU exchanger. I would have to double check. I do not have glycol on either side. The B and G runs at 22gpm

Rich_49

How many

GPM do you need through each circuit , and at what temperature ? What heat exchanger is installed and what pump is on the other side and what is the source ?

hot_rod

what feeds that HX

could be that the input is not keeping up. Pump on the "A" side bad? Fouled HX?

smittyal06

Possible?

Okay, so I looked at the pump on the wood boiler feeding the house. It has a Taco 009-F5 which I see has a max flow of 10gpm. We had a Grundfos UPS15-58FC that has a max flow of 17gpm. Would this be the problem that the pump feeding the house has a lower flow rate then the pump in the house feeding the zones?

smittyal06

Scratch that

Nevermind. Since the boiler goes to a plate exchanger, there is no shared water, so that should not affect the system as far as having different flow rates.

smittyal06

Like

my thought, as long as the water is not getting to the plate exchanger, that should mean that pump is working properly right. And since the return water is hot, it must be working?

smittyal06

Not

sure what I need in gallons per minute. I have 6 runs at 300' of 1/2 inch. A SWEP heat exchanger around 225,000BTU. It pumps into the exchanger from a wood boiler using a Taco 009-F5.

kcopp

Can we see ...

how this is piped and pipe sizes so as to  look at the big picture? Got pix?

Steamfitter66

we need more info

What is the HX boiler supply and return temp when its running with all zones operating? And the same for the loop side of the HX. Then total piping length and size for both the boiler and loop side.

Your pumps all have a curve with corresponding head and gpm. you dont know what they are flowing till you know what type of piping system it is installed.

An nrf wont flow as much as 15-58 in a radiant system.

How long has this system been in service?



Most likely your hx is fouled on the boiler side and needs to be flushed and the water needs to be treated.

Zman

Details

Is the pex in the joist bays bare tubing of are there alum plates?

What is the history of this problem? Did it ever work?

Forget what you think you know about circulators. The rating you are looking at are GPM at minimal head. Your system has lots of head. The correct circ for you system will be able to move the appropriate amount of water at fairly high head.

It is likely that there are several things combining to cause the problem. Many wood boiler setups have a undersized supply line. My experience with central boiler is that they have very little design knowledge.

Post as many details and pictures as you can.

Carl

smittyal06

Pictures

Here are some pictures. I am new to the house, so the system has never worked for me. Not sure about the past. I know it is not the prettiest system. The first picture is the entire system on the house side of the plate exchanger. The hot water flows up to the expansion tank, and can go straight down to the basement pump or loop around. If it draws to where the two pumps are located, the upper pump sends it to the upstairs through two supply and two return. The lower pump sends it to the main level with 6 supply and 6 return.



There is always plenty of hot water coming in from the heat exchanger and heading back to the stove. The supply lines on this side are always hot, so it seems to me as though plenty of heat is being brought in. So, I am not questioning all of you, but trying to learn how these systems work. With the stove system in a way separate from the stove system separated by the exchanger, I don't understand how this could be an issue with the stove side?



Looking at the pictures, If I have the thermostat on for the upstairs which is the upper pump, and the main floor (the lower pump) it draws all the hot water, and the pipe actually cools between the two pumps as though the main floor pump is not getting any hot water. If the upstairs thermostat is off, the hot water flows fine to the bottom pump. Same is true with the basement. If that thermostat is on, the basement pump (located under the other two) draws all the hot water. The flow seems to be fine in the basement as both lines supply and return hot. If upstairs lines are running, one line will run okay while the other stays cold. On the main floor, the hot water travels partially through, but it seems to not make it back. The lines are hot about halfway through the 300'loop and then cool off drastically. They are all hot at the start. There are aluminum plates on the main level lines. The water entering the main level is about 120 degrees. Not sure of return. In the bottom left of the first picture which you cant see, there is also a pump to the left of the electric boiler. You can see the electric lines.



I appreciate all of the insight and I hope all of you can help me make this work. I have been through 5 heating guys and cannnot get one to come out to work on it, and 52 degrees in the house in the middle of a WI winter is not very warm.

Zman

Immediate problem

The problem you are having right now is an undersized circulator on the heating loop.

Overall, you have some serious design issues in the mechanical room piping. I think your problem is getting worse http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/146762/Radiant-Heat-not-Heating

You may be able to band-aid this with a different circ, what you really need to do is repipe the mechanical room.

Carl

smittyal06

Agree

As I said, it is not pretty, but I can not get someone to come out and work on it. I have had 5 guys stop in, not really give a definite "issue" then won't come back, or even return my calls.

What size circ should I have? Are you talking about my zones. Or the boiler pump? What should I be looking for in a pump. (gpm, volts, . . .?)

Don't get me wrong, I would like it redesigned if that is the issue, but I need to get someone here who knows what they are doing. Unless there are some site to help design a system or if someone here is willing? But, if a circ would bandaid it for now, we could at least get some heat in our house in the meantime.

smittyal06

Exchanger

I said there is heat on the house side of things in the lines and that doesn't seem to be the problem. However, again I am not an expert. I looked more at the heat exchanger and have pictures below. Could my pumps be trying to pull hot water wrong? In the first picture the hot water is coming in from the boiler on the bottom pipe inlet closest to viewer (F3). On the second picture the hot enters the house system on the top pipe furthest from viewer (P2). On the return it re-enters the exchanger in the second picture on the bottom furthest from viewer (P4) and out to the boiler on the second picture on top closest to viewer (F1).



Again, the basement heats up, so there is hot water traveling through lines. But the third picture shows instructions from a SWEP installation. It says there should only be a cross in B9, B60, and D700 series exchangers. I have a SWEP B10Thx20\1P-SC-S exchanger. I am not exactly sure how to read the counter-current flow. Do I just look at the black or just the white. So, should it enter from the boiler top right, into the house system bottom right. Return from house top right, and enter boiler bottom right. Or does it enter through black and return through white?



Again I am not sure this is even an  issue, b/c there is hot water on the house side of exchanger?

Here is the site I got the diagram and directions.  http://www.swep.net/Documents/Service%20and%20support/Installation%20manuals/92099_EN.pdf

smittyal06

I stress

that the water on house side is hot. I cannot even hold my hand on the pipes. It is going to the house side circ that way, but delta T is very high. Not sure on temp coming back b/c there is no gauge. Again, only one circ will feed at a time. With both on, the first pump draws all hot water and second pump gets no hot water, With first circ not running second gets hot water. Again, the return very cool. If this is just a circ issue on my zones, how do I figure the size i need, or could someone tell me what I should be using?



This may negate my last post of the exchanger, but I wanted to provide all info I could.

smittyal06

Tried

I tried placing a Taco 009 on the loops for the main floor. With this there, I was able to supply a little more heat. I can have 3 lines open with heat actually returning. (getting somewhere!) There is still a high delta T. With this there, it also steal all the heat from my upstairs pump. Opposite which was going on before.

Do I go with yet a larger pump that can deal with more head? I know ultimitely the furnace room needs a new pipe job on the house side of the exchanger. Any suggestions for how to go about drawing something like this up? I am not real confident of anyone in the area.

Weezbo

i have an idea ,

if you could find the time and list ,

the circulator

1. bed room . taco

2 bath room grundfoss

3.living room bell and gosset

4.boiler armstrong



and then put the size after them and the floor level

then

make another list of three way mixers ..



it is controlled by which circulators or rooms or floors



this would help me see this in my mind more clearly .



then if you could set the room s down

1. 6 loops of 300 foot 1/2"

2. 3loops of 300 ,1/2" inch

3. whatever it is ..

because then it makes it little bit easier right now when i look at the picture ,

i have a bit of trouble with the array ..



do you have some plumbing tools?



like a torch and crimp ring or wirsbo expandeer because if you have a cutter and reamer and some gritch cloth and some flux and solder ,

maybe there is a way to do some things with what you have there to make it easier to deal with ..

Weezbo .

Weezbo

do you have some 3/4"copper pipe?

and some fittings and some coupligs.



because whoever installed this has a more creative touch than most.



from what i see here you have field/ System side anomalies most likely as well.



the next thing is this , you may need to cut the pex tubing that you already have and couple that back together so there is less of it interfering with your work area .



your having so many things all over the place like this makes for too many variables .



whatever floor heat you have may need to be cut and some low temp style heat that uses convection installed to make the rooms warmer. this also means that

you will need to find some new way Home , with it.



or some tubing needs to go from the heat emiter back to the boiler room .

that will also mean that you will need some more pex to get back from or go to the pipe that you cut to connect the convective heat.



yet before we clean up that side having things at the boiler room so you can work on them in an orderly way will save you a bunch of grief and stress and frustration .



.....

let me guide you away from this to a simpler more straight way. the path you have been exploring has led you into the brambles.

smittyal06

Are you

saying we will be installing a different type of heating system using the current pipe? I want to know the big picture before we starting cutting and piecing together. I am all for redoing things or whatever, I just want to know what the outcome looks like.

I am working on the list!

smittyal06

Here

is a drawn diagram of my set up. May be easier to look at then all pixs.

Weezbo

i am waiting for a chance,

to speak with a friend she will make me an admin . in a real time chat room we have ,

it has Paint so i can speak with you and draw pictures in colour and if you have a ? or two or if you want to you can draw on the same picture and that way , we can convey things much easier and faster .



she is a Lunch Lady in a school in the south ..

so she has to be up nd out the door by 4 a .m. sorta your time..

i will wait for here at a listening post ..

when i am in touch with her i will then wait for you .

you will have to give them some info so the chat room will register you at first i will not know it is you and you will be given a name like froggy or some goof ball thing soon as you click on channge my name then you will be allowed to the site and i can make you a member..

then you can follow along and draw a pipe sketch say and i can show you using colour where you are pulling a mixed cold water in instead of hot using blue for cold red for hot purple for mix and purple and blue dashes for cold water return mixed then you can see OH Gawd ! i thought that was hot ... and then i can change the drawing and then you caan see what it is that you can do to correct that.



right now even if i explain stuff to you i would rather you got one thing straight at a time ...

because at any given moment of the day i may have to just drop everything and run to get some things done...

so , thats the deal.



this chat room is a gamesite chat where i was the General for years and we fought many battles with other players and as crazy as this may seem we are not spring chickens some of my friends here are in their 60's 70's and 80's : )



we discuss battle plans etc so that isolated there no one can steal our strategy or be a fly on the wall ...



when we have this picture you ahve of your boiler room now and what it looks like when you have more heat and whenever it is finished you can re start a new thread and post before and afters and you can explain your discoveries : )

and that would be a good thing ...

*~//: )



you can draw a sketch of the floor plan there and put a N on the map so i know which way charlie the house is situated

and if you own one of the 20 $ ifred guns that would make life so much simpiler altogether .. Knotgrumy says some green froggy tapes the ticket on copper tube ..i believe him i try some blue ape for painting trim outs i try balck 3 M rubber all sorts of things buh the froggy tape looks like its the deal ..

first we may have to revisit your pics here a bit for the sake of brevity and quick pictures , there is some heat loss that you did so we might have to click on that several times as we go along and aid in some minor technicalities ..so if you have chrome or fire fox where you can run multiple tabs and keep them open like i am now

that would be good.

we may even visit some pics and manuals from manufacturers and we can send links in chat or this site is resplendent with manufacturers of many things and pictures already which would also aid in different formations plus there are charts and graphhs of technical nature that are real simple when you have a chance to go at your own speed and ask what i s what or how they do that!? type things ..



we always wanted a paint board and for me it is not a lot of hassling around ..



it is click draw a line select red draw a line blue draw a line purple draw a line ..

some pictures i may show as planar rather than X,Y,Z. type depictions for the ease of drawing . for the most part , i draw things like a triangle = pump thr point headed the direction . i use V's to represent direction of flow on a line ...



/ is valve

-is open

all real plain jane type things .



i draw faster than type is the main advantage ..this paint thing has an eraser choose a large white dot like this your cursor becomes a black dot , then you can make it bigger and bigger then choose white as a colour and just draw over thhe line you want to go away or what ever like a pump and line or valve ..zip it is gone .

its handy and not real complicated to use...

*~//:)

Zman

Could you?

Could you note the position of the shut of valves (on/off), note pipe sizes and flow direction (arrows on the circulators) and give a part number or picture of the mixing valves?

Carl

Weezbo

so you see it too...: )

yuppers ... and when the fix is in the mix i think that is just the beginning to this .



just how long is a series loop in half "

like i can parallel plenty 1/2"

buh series not so easy...its like close to dragging out the jack hammer ...thats why declustering can like temp gauges cut not just hours off o job buh in some cases like the baseboard episode ,..weeks...

Weezbo

i sent you a letter ,

it will show in your e- mail .



short answer . no we are not going to go remaking the wheel .

you have spent enough time on this stuff and its over 40 below outside my door .



approximately 10 hours from now , i will be at the place where we can draw blue line for cold red line for hot purple for mixed .



we do that first . then we open and close a couple valves ..and check that that way and draw what pipe is hot red and what pipe is cold blue and what pipe is warm purple like that ..



First.

i realize it took me a while to become an administrator again , however, now i can vouch for you and make you a free member and you can make this so much easier than thinking in circles ...

you have done all sorts of things to it already and apparently that did not work .out too well.

so mainly what we are about is , you making some discoveries ,... and then we find the things that you can do easiest ...first.



what we are looking at is basically , tidying up what we have there so it better depicts your efforts and makes what you have go.



there are too many things tripping you up and that is about the short and sweet of it.

William .



Safe you can post things back on the wall when you have accurate information ,

and i think there is someway to copy and export painted pic's, from there , too.

Tom_133

Exchanger

Without the time to read through this whole thread, what is the plate exchanger doing? I think from your old thread it goes to a wood boiler? If so can you just shut that off and have the electric boiler run the house up to temp? and what is the spacing between the tees where the plate exchanger ties into the primary header?