How To Find Leaks In Condensate Pipes

Leaks

I have a 1920s home with a two pipe steam system. We have two radiators turned off on 2nd and 3rd floors because they must share a return pipe and it is leaking. Turning them off was the least expensive solution. However, now we would like to get fixed and there are a couple of questions. I am worried about cost and limiting deconstruction. So far everyone that looks at the problem does not have a very good plan to solve the problem. The solution has been...we'll see once we get into it. I see that getting out of control. I want to know if there are any best practices or tricks of the trade out there to help narrow down where the leak is in order to avoid tearing the whole house apart.



First, are there any tricks to narrow down where the leak is? Do people pour hot water in through the trap and use an infrared camera to see where the pipes run and where leak may be? Or, do they isolate the run and blow air in from basement and listen for leak? Other ways? Metal detector?



Second, are there any approaches to get to the pipes? From above through the beautiful hardwood floors or through the plaster ceilings? Has anyone heard of anyone successfully relining condensate pipes by using technology like nu flow, etc. Or, do people usual abandon the old pipe and run eps or something? What tends to be best approach?



Thanks for any suggestions.

nicholas bonham-carter

Finding the leak

How much area is affected by the leak? Is it above a ceiling? Have you checked the trap to make sure that it is not leaking and running down the pipe?

Unfortunately the solutions to these hidden leaks can get out of everybody's control. Any diagnostics you can do yourself will mean a shorter visit by the steam pro.--NBC

Leaks

Finding the leak

Yes, we have checked the trap for leaking.



As you know, locating leaks when water is involved is very difficult because water can travel pretty far along a pipe before dripping and then along boards in a ceiling before finding an exit. The leak appears on the first floor ceiling in a dining room that has a lot if oak woodwork beams (channels for water). The pipes are in and outside wall and come down over a bay window and then must go horizontal and then vertical again to make it into the basement. The water does not wet the plaster in the ceiling but drips out of the beam across the bump out and paneling in the ceiling if the bay window. It's my belief that the leak could be many feet away from where we see water dripping. Hence the challenge. I believe the leak was caused by a return pipe freezing because this is in an outside wall and the effects of the bay window and poor insulation around this area. Or maybe the pipe rusted out on the horizontal or something.



I am interested about the best approach to finding and repairing. One pro wanted to tear into the house from the outside through stucco. In thinking about how steam pipes are routed I didn't feel like this was the best approach but it may be. I hesitate to go in from the dining room and disrupt all the old oak paneling and woodwork. Hence the reason of maybe going in from the outside. It may be worthwhile tearing into the wall in second floor to just see what you can see because it might tell you something. Tearing into plaster and stucco is much easier to patch that old oak that was installed by dead men.



Any further thoughts?



Thanks.

ALIGA

stucco

i disagree, i think you should work from the inside.



once you break the stucco, you have to cut the wood/plywood sheating behind it, etc.



i would delicately start removing the wood paneling and work from within.



crank up the heat, maybe get a handheld snake video camera, and start making small holes.

vaporvac

Plaster

I have never had this problem with steam pipes, but I have had extensive experience on old plumbing and drains. It is very difficult to match the old stucco and much easier to repair plaster. I'd start there if those are your only options. The hacks that owned my house prior ripped up all the beautiful tile flooring to get at the plumbing when we've been able to make repairs from beneath in all cases. It may also be possible to pull up complete boards instead of cutting into them if it seems that is where the leak is located, and then putting them back. Gel stain works wonders to blend in any marks. Whatever you do don't make one big cut in the floor as there's no way to remedy that.



I will say, judging from my plumbing leaks that the water was always very near, if not at the leak. I think it may travel less than you think unless it's on the vertical rise. Leave the panels alone, unless you can find a way to remove them intact.

Maybe someone will suggest a less intrusive method, but ALiga handheld snakes seems the best so far. Is there any way one would fit down the return hole?

steamedchicago

bisection...

You say you have two radiators that appear to have leaking returns.  First thing to do is turn one radiator off, and run the system.  If there's water, you know the plumbing for that radiator is involved.  If there's not, you know its not.  Either way, shut that radiator off, and turn the other one on.  If there's water, you know it's involved.  If not, it's not.  If it only leaks when both are on, then it's a leak in the shared piping, and one that depends on volume (hole in the side of a horizontal pipe, fitting on a transition from vertical to horizontal, something like that.) 

Pumpguy

peppermint vapors

Another way to find leaks in the return lines of a 2 pipe system is to rig up some way to blow peppermint vapors into the return lines.  Then walk the building and wherever you smell peppermint, the leak is nearby. 



If I knew the details of what type of 2 pipe system you have, I might be able to offer specific suggestions on how you could actually perform this test.

Jamie Hall

Both

Aliga and steamedchicago have very good suggestions.  Particularly Aliga's idea of using a video snake to inspect the piping -- assuming that there is a handy hole you can slip it into (and they will get into very small holes -- maybe even where the pipes go through the floor there might be enough clearance).



I'd be rather wary of the idea of a return freezing and bursting -- there is so little condensate that it would be rather extreme, in my view, for that to happen (that said, I have had a trap on a radiator freeze, but not the return -- so never say never!).  I'd be much more suspicious of a leak at a fitting; an ideal candidate would be at the bottom of a 90 degree el where it goes into the horizontal line in the ceiling.



All of which finds the leak -- maybe -- but doesn't address fixing it.



Depending on access and exactly how the lines are routed, the best plan might be to abandon the line in question in place, and run a new line -- but without actually looking at the whole setup, I couldn't say whether that was feasible or not, or whether it would even be an improvement over attempting a repair.



I might add that, in my humble opinion, if you have to start tearing things up to get at the horizontal section of the line you should consider what craftsmen -- and I do mean craftsmen! -- you can find.  It isn't particularly easy to tear up and replace hardwood floor.  On the other hand, finding a plasterer who can patch a plaster ceiling so you don't see it borders on the impossible (although it happens that I do know a chap who can).