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Gas Conversion Help.

I an in the process of converting 5 y.o. Burnham V84 to gas. I have all the parts required including Carlin EZ. The paperwork with the Town of Islip is started. My plumber got sick and will be unable to complete the job. I am in Sayville. If you are Licensed plumber in Islip and have knowledge of gas conversion using Carlin EZ, I would love to talk. Thanks, Joe

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736
    Try

    the Find a Contractor page of this site. 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Harper111
    Harper111 Member Posts: 26
    It is not permitted and will fail inspection

    Burnham does not approve of gas conversions on their oil boilers if not originally installed on it. Call Burnham and ask for your options directly.



    Also, most likely if your township inspector calls or looks in the manual, they will be instructed to fail the installation automatically since it is not approved by the manufacturer.



    As well, it appears all gas gun manufacturers have been directed to not provide any advice or support for conversion of the boilers.



    Your only option is a whole replacement to a brand new factory gas Burnham unit, or other brand. What your are doing is considered unsafe and not permitted by the manufacturer.
  • Harthur
    Harthur Member Posts: 1
    Similar input from them

    I called them up and was in the same boat.



    We wound up ripping the entire old boiler out and went with a new one. We could not find anyone willing to risk doing a conversion with permits for us.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    edited December 2013
    Here , we can do with permission

    as long as there is a sticker on the side stating date and intent to convert provided by the seller of a boiler from the manufacturer at time of final mechanical inspection then , there are a whole different set of requirements imposed safety's and venting requirement changes as well as combustion air requirements and i think bonding on the electrical side.



    each Gas Company and Muni in the country has fire and gas codes they adopt and many they will not for their own reasons.

    and

    after the install of the new venting etc is another inspection or three....

    then there is a final avec readout of combustion a report , No one said it was easy ...



    ....
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    I'll Save You the Phone Call

    Here will be their response.....NO!!! Installation Manual speaks for them. Been down this road many times. Also keep in mind that any warranty left on the cast iron will be voided.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,473
    edited December 2013
    Stupid

    I can understand the voiding of a warranty but how much of a hazard could a power burner be when it's inside the firing chamber of a cast iron boiler? It's a lot less of a threat than a brand new atmospheric gas boiler.



    I live just south of Boston and when i had my Smith G8 installed with the Carlin EZ-Gas all the inspector was interested in was that the system passed the gas leak test.



    Amazing what little minds cling to, God forbid an inspector should think.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    HB Smith

    Is approved for conversion since its offered with a gas power burner and has the testing. Will a gas conversion burner work when properly installed and set up. Sure will and very well. The issue comes down to liability. Not approved so the liability falls onto the contractor.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,473
    I understand

    there is always a liability issue but how many tens of thousands of coal and oil burning pieces of equipment have been converted with the old style gas conversion burners. The code recognizes and approves of them being used; I really don't understand the issue here.



    If a contractor steps inside your home or on your property there are liability issues on both sides. The key used to be that work would be done in a workman like manor; that worked well for many decades because it inferred the work would be done correctly and safely.



    It's a wonder anything gets done with lawyers leaping over each other to sue anybody for any conceivable reason. Maybe it's time to require legislators NOT be lawyers.



    A pox on all of them.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited December 2013
    Massachusetts inspectors:

    Massachusetts plumbing and Gas inspectors are at the top of the game because of the State Board requirements of 12 hours of Continuing Education per year with the Board over Code issues. Plumber's and Gas fitters get 6 hours per year.



    Someone posted here that they picked up a Weil-McLain 368 oil boiler and wanted to know how to install a gas conversion burner. In Massachusetts, you CAN'T. Probably the same in other states.

    Behind most every code change, there is a death or serious injury. Improper venting is the biggest issue. That means bringing the venting into compliance. No venting gas conversion burners into unlined chimney's.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,608
    3,500 burners later

    I should be in Federal Prison serving a life sentence for negligence and endangering the lives of thousands. I absorbed all the warranty issues myself (never had to make good on one of them).



    Maybe the deal is what are we going to do when oil boilers are no longer in demand. Maybe the boiler manufacturers should start removing oil burners and installing a gas conversion burner and sell it as such.



    I am going to e-mail Obama and ask him what I should do, he has all the answers.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Different Times

    Tim, agree with you but times are different. It also falls in with the PVC venting debate. Kind of the same thing isn't it?
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,608
    Yes Chris exactly

    the truth is as with PVC or anything else if testing and approval were done and mutual liability was established for all involved things could work themselves out.



    The amazing thing is that as we post here new conversion burners are being developed and coming out. Someone should let those folks know that ANSI Z21.8 is no longer in affect and conversions are no longer allowed in the US.



    I have a class on Conversion Burners Scheduled for Feb 19, 20 and 21, 2014  I will have rulings available at that time for those who attend from boiler companies, inspectors and conversion burner manufacturers.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    edited December 2013
    Touche , Bob C .

    yah ,

    like you here ,

    when the manufacturers wont accept responsibility,



    In a workmanlike manner ,

    has us installing and thinking and making things we know will work

    some which were not even invented at the time on the open market .

    .....

    it is that good.

    it is not without apprehension or due consideration , what Tim Said in the next post.



    ......

    there is nothing cavalier in our approach to these issues .
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    With all respect i say this Tim,

    Your class should be broadcast on National T.V. .

    ..................



    *~//: )



    ......... Repeatedly .

    such is the trust in The Work

    and the work you have preformed .
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,396
    I would pay....

    to watch those programs.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    So would I

    .
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736
    edited December 2013
    Harper111, you still have not answered our earlier question

    Do you work for Burnham? If not, what is your stake in this?



    Tim has been in this business longer than any of us, and he has had no problems doing conversions. Obviously he knows something you don't. You can keep ranting about this all you want, it's a free country- but the rest of us will listen to Tim.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Harper111
    Harper111 Member Posts: 26
    Moot Point

    Lets reiterate, it is not permitted by the manufacturer and should fail inspection.



    You can open up your own boiler company and make your own rules, but on this equipment, it is simply not permitted.



    Burnham does not approve of gas conversions on their oil boilers if not originally installed on it. Call Burnham and ask for your options directly.



    Also, most likely if your township inspector calls or looks in the manual, they will be instructed to fail the installation automatically since it is not approved by the manufacturer.



    As well, it appears all gas gun manufacturers have been directed to not provide any advice or support for conversion of the boilers.



    Your only option is a whole replacement to a brand new factory gas Burnham unit, or other brand. What your are doing is considered unsafe and not permitted by the manufacturer.



    The manufacturer would consider redesigns to the equipment unsafe since it has not been tested and certified by them.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736
    edited December 2013
    Answer the question, Harper

    Who are you? Who do you work for? Do you work for Burnham? Do you work for a supply house that sells Burnham products? Do you work for a gas supplier? Why are you so motivated to push people to completely replace perfectly serviceable boilers that will offer better efficiency than the usual atmospheric boilers? 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    I would say

    Bob's motivated by the same thing I am.. the aversion to attorneys and lawsuits. I won't touch a conversion with a 10 foot pole. Not happening. Ever. Just because a fairly new ci boiler holds water and has a shiny jacket does not mean its worth the liabilty.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736
    I think there's more to it

    Look at the list of Harper's postings. Every single post in every thread he has posted in is the same anti-conversion-burner thing. It's as if he comes on the Wall for only that single purpose.



    On the one hand, we have Tim, whose standing in the industry is second to none. In a career spanning 40-plus years, Tim has done over 3,500 conversions and has never had a problem, which is a rather definitive precedent - and if he DID have a problem, as an educator he would surely tell us about it. And since Tim owns his own business, no one is ordering him to say certain things.



    Then we have Harper, whose background is..... what? Is he a contractor? A salesperson? Does he have experience with gas conversion burners? If he has had a bad experience, why doesn't he tell us about it? We don't know, despite asking repeatedly. Why the secrecy?



    My own experience with gas conversion burners reflects Tim's, though it has nowhere near the extent his has.



    If a particular contractor is not comfortable using these burners, that is a business decision which I respect. But for someone to come on here and rant against those who do use them is questionable at best.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Harper111
    Harper111 Member Posts: 26
    Call the manufacturer

    People will follow the guidance of the company that manufactured, designed and engineered the system.



    Please do yourself a favor and follow the direction of the manufacturer, as they know the system best. You typically will not get yourself in trouble this way.



    If you are unsure, it would be best call them and ask for guidance.



    Curious as to what was Burnham's response when you inquired with them about this?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736
    edited December 2013
    Answer the question, Harper

    Are you a contractor? A salesperson? Do you have experience with gas conversion burners? If you have had a bad experience, why don't you tell us about it? Why are you hiding from us?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Harper111
    Harper111 Member Posts: 26
    Same back at you.

    Why are you afraid to call the manufacturer and share exactly what they said to you on this matter?
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,608
    Harper

    right back at you. Why won't you identify yourself, it is the practice on this forum to make ourselves known.



    As to your point about manufacturers I have communicated with one on several occasions, that being Burnham. They do not authorize any Burnham oil system being converted to gas using a power burner. That we all accept and also the voiding of warranty is also accepted. That does not however mean that the boiler can not be converted, it is a matter of choice on the part of the homeowner and the contractor. Here locally we do not have any trouble with inspectors approving conversions as long as Z21.8 (are you familiar with that publication) is followed and the burner manufacturers instructions are carried out.



    I have found in sitting down with inspectors and taking the time to explain the conversion process they are not opposed to allowing it.



    I realize there is a lot of genuine concern in the oil industry about the recent loss of customers to natural gas, perhaps you may be associated with that industry. The latest Indoor Comfort Magazine version discusses some of the great things that are happening with oil equipment. It is my hope that oil will make a comeback. That is why on all my conversions I leave the old oil burner there. The price of natural gas is expected to go up 13% this winter with oil holding steady. Propane is in trouble with the inability to have product available especially here in the north east.



    Why not identify yourself and give us your personal opinion about the fact that as we speak there are perhaps some new power gas conversion burners coming out. 



    Look at the Carlin Applications Guide for all the boilers they have tested and recommend their burners for use with those boilers.
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