Steam help please.. need some sleep!

stressedout_steamgirl

Good Morning!

I have been in my 1935 home now for almost 2 years. I converted to gas last October. At first everything was wonderful! In December my boiler cracked! Long story short I ended up needing a new boiler. I will spare you the drama about the installation, the shoddy contractor I was referred to etc. All I am looking for is for my system to be efficient and QUIET. My home is tiny, less than 900 square feet. I have read many of your topics and I have lowered my pressure and differential. I am working now with a wonderful new plumber however; he is limited with his steam knowledge.

We have read the suggestions and we have tweaked the pressure and the varivalves; however, when the boiler kicks on the upstairs radiators (3) hiss first and then even after the radiators get hot, they sputter and spew something awful.

What I am hoping to find out here is a referral to a local steam expert in my area. I feel that we are maxed out as to what we can try on our own to fix the problem. As stated in the begining of my story, when I was first converted and the system was tweaked and balanaced it worked like a charm so I can only hope that the system can be like that again with the right knowledge and assistance.

If you are wondering why I am not working with that steam professional again, unfortunately they are no longer in the area.

I live in Central Connecticut. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks so much!

Stressed out steam girl

BobC

Pipe configuration and skimming

It sounds like something was not done right when the new boiler was installed. Modern steam boilers are very fussy when it comes to the near boiler piping. If you look at the piping diagram in the installation manual does your piping look anything like that picture?



Does the water in your sight glass move around a lot while it's making steam? If it does it probably needs to be skimmed to remove any oil that is mixed with the water. New boilers and pipes are usually coated with oil to prevent rust but the oil mixes with the water and makes the waterline very unstable and results in wet steam



Please post pictures of the boiler and the pipes around it so we can see how it is configured.



Bob

Dave in QCA

Where are you?

You indicate that you want us to help you find a steam professional in your area. But, you forgot to tell us where you are.

ChrisJ

Varivalves?

Did someone say Varivalves? As in, Heat Timer Varivalves?

Dave in QCA

Oooops!

ChrisJ, I read right over that! They by nature hiss and spew. TERRIBLE radiator vent, but the actually make decent main vents. HA!

stressedout_steamgirl

Thanks so much!

Yes, they are heat timer varivalve quick vents. I read in some of your posts that Hoffman and Gordon vents are better, what are your thoughts?

 The funny thing is, the vents on the first floor are pretty quiet.

I am in Central Connecticut.

Thanks so much!!

Dave in QCA

My Preference

My preference for radiator vents is the old standard Hoffman #40, the silver bullet. They are nice and slow, quiet, and reliable.

It is important to vent your mains fast and your radiators slow. What type of vents are on your mains?

stressedout_steamgirl

hmmmm

Sorry, what do you mean by "mains" please? Are you referring to the main valve on the boiler itself?

Dave in QCA

Main Vent

Down in the basement, near the end of the steam main, or mains if you have more than one, there should be a large vent device.

ChrisJ

Hoffman 40s

Are a good vent but be warned, they click and clack.



I'm definitely a Gorton man. Silent, reliable, effective.

stressedout_steamgirl

Photos

Thanks so much!! Here are some photos

stressedout_steamgirl

Gorton

Hi Chris,



Thanks for your help!  I have to be honest, I HATE noise! So.. regarding the Gorton vent.. is it really quiet? Is there a website that you prefer to order them from please?

stressedout_steamgirl

Photos

Hi Bob,

I posted some pictures. Looking forward to your thoughts..



Thanks!!

Beth Ann

ChrisJ

Quiet

It all depends.



The vent it self doesn't click or clack, however it may hiss if your system builds pressure. Mine chirp a little from time to time but you have to be literally right next to the vent to even notice it. My Hoffman 1As did the same thing, but clicked and clacked when opening and closing.



I buy all of mine from Pexsupply.com



http://www.pexsupply.com/pex/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=gorton%20air%20vent

Dave in QCA

commenting

Hoffman 1A are notoriously noisy. The Hoffman #40 does also have the click, but it is not near as loud as the 1A and their hissing sound is almost inaudible.



if you pick Gorton, I would suggest that you get the slowest, or next slowest ones available.

stressedout_steamgirl

Main Vent

Hi Dave,

The main vent is a Gorton.  I have one main vent in the basement.



thoughts?

Dave in QCA

Gorton is Good

Gorton Main vents are usually a #2 or a #1. The 2 is much faster and for a small system might be satisfactory.



However, there is a potential problem that I encountered with the Gorton and that is that they begin to close around 134F as I recall. MY system cycles once an hour and the steam mains are well insulated. My mains are usually 155-170 when the next cycle starts and this was warm enough that the Gorton vents hardly opened at all. So, they're a real fast vent, but only when they're open.



Most people get good performance from them.

BobC

Skim and venting

The near boiler piping looks pretty good but the water in the sight glass is gross, I don't see a skim port on the boiler so i assume the installer did not bother to skim the boiler after installing it. New boilers REQUIRE skimming to remove the oils from the water. On a new boiler the water should be clear, mine is about a year old and it is nice and clear, I required a skim port when the boiler was installed and I used it several times after the boiler was installed.



If you look in your install manual Burnham specifies the location of the skim port, have your new plumber install a full size pipe and a full port ball valve there so the boiler can be skimmed to get rid of all the oils in the boiler. It takes hours to do a good skimming and you often have to do it several times.



After you get most of the oil out you will want to drain the boiler, fill it and drain it again to get rid of all the rust in the water - THIS SHOULD BE DONE WHEN THE BOILER IS COLD OR JUST WARM. When it's filled the last time bring the boiler up to steam to drive off all the oxygen fresh water will introduce to the boiler



Tell us how many radiators you have, list their sizes and what kind if air vent each one has. Heat Timer varivalves can be very problematic on most radiators, if you have them they should be turned down fairly low because they tend to spray water if they are up too high. You may want to replace them with Gortons or Maid O Mist vents but lets get the boiler water clean first. If the pressure is low a good vent makes almost no noise unless you are right next to it.



You have a large pipe that runs around the basement near the ceiling with smaller pipes that come of it feeding each radiator; you may have more than one steam main so tell about how long each one is and how many inches around it is, then we can tell you if you need more main venting or what you have is enough.



Steam cannot fill a pipe or a radiator until all the air is out, there should be a vent device on each main that can be green, copper, or silver - take a picture of any you find.  A Gorton # 1 is about 2-1/2" in diameter while a Gorton #2 is over twice as big. Most systems have a lot of air in the boiler header and the steam main, if you depend on the radiator vents to get rid of all that air it's going to take some time and it will cost you fuel and probably make the system heat unevenly.



Bob

Unknown

st el

The street el should've not be used here.. esp when you have room for regualr el!

Rod

Main Vent(s)

Hi- Is your Gorton Main vent fairly new?  Have you checked to see if it is working properly?  To check it, take a strip of newspaper 6-8 inch and attached one end of the strip to the end of a broom handle with scotch tape. You can then hold the strip near the vent's orifice and see if the paper moves.  When the burner first comes on and is starting to make steam there should be movement but when the steam reaches the vent and the vent closes, the movement should stop. DO NOT check main or radiator vents with your bare hand! Use the paper strip method. Live steam is invisible and can give you a very bad burn!  If you can, post a picture of the main vent(s) so we can recogize what model it is.

- Rod

ChrisJ

Street ell

How did you miss the bullhead tee above that or the reducer the ell goes into?

Unknown

its dark

Its dark in the basement!... closer look yep, bulled head tee.. good eye

BobC

oops

My computer just came back and one of the things that changed was my nice simple photo enhancer. Now that i figured out how to use the new "improved" version your absolutely right.



She did say the old boiler worked fine so even though that is not good I don't think it's the main cause of this problem with the squirting vents but i could always be wrong.



Bob

ChrisJ

Yep

That is why I didn't mention the bullhead.

I figured we were all trying to help with the immediate problems and then if need be would mention that.



But chances are it can work as is.

stressedout_steamgirl

A bit confused

You all are so wonderfully helpful! Thanks so much!

I am confused though. What are you referring to.. bull head? Is there something wrong?

Chris, in your post it also says something about rectorseal water treatment, is that reply to me?

Bob, thanks so much too! So, just to clarify, I should contact my plumber and have him install the piping so the water can be drained and then can I drain the boiler or does he need to?

Sorry for all of the questions, just trying to get my hands wrapped around all of this info!

Thanks so much!

Beth Ann

ChrisJ

Nope

I think you're reading my signature which is displayed after every post in lighter text. Its just a description of my personal steam system.



The bullhead tee in your piping is wrong but I would personally hold off having the piping modified until the venting is straightened out. There is a chance it could work ok as is.

ChrisJ

bullhead

This is what we believe is a bullhead tee in your system and is considered a bad practice. But there are times it works out just fine. Whoever installed the boiler should have changed it but my understanding is that is all in the past so you would have to pay to have the work done.



Is that correct?

stressedout_steamgirl

where is it

Hi, in the picture I posted where is the bullhead t.. just curious what you are referring to please?

I am in New Britain, Connecticut just in case you know of a steam professional out this way.



THANKS!

ChrisJ

Above

I circled it in red in the picture above.



Is the attachment not being displayed? Please let me know.

stressedout_steamgirl

More photos

Hi!! Could this faucet be the drain you guys mentioned? Can this be used to drain the icky water?? Fingers crossed!!



And... Here is a pic of the main..



Gathering other info will reply shortly.



Thanks so much!!



Beth Ann

Bio

Returns?

Looks like you have two returns and both are to tie up above the water line, each have to go below water line then tie into the hartford loop,

stressedout_steamgirl

you are correct

Thanks, yes , I can see the picture.

It's been a long road. I convered to gas last Oct. Boiler cracked in Dec.

I was referred to a plumber who installed the current boiler. Nothing about that installation went well.

I then was referred to a second plumber who repiped the boiler. And that is where I am now.

I would think that any other work I have done there will be a cost.

stressedout_steamgirl

Radiators

Hi,

I have 6 radiators. 2 are in the living room they are Arco Sunrad. 20 inches high  each. 5 inches deep with 16 sections each.

One in the dining room also Arco Sunrad, 20 inches with 17sections.

Upstairs I have one in each bedroom both are Burnhams, 22 inches 4 tube 22 sections.

One in the bathroom upstairs Burnham 25 inches high, 4 tubes 8 sections

Each of the 6 radiators have Varivalve Heat Timer valves.

Bob, you mentioned "costing me fuel". I felt my first gas bill after I turned the heat on went up a lot for the few days the heat was on. I was worried this was from the system. I am unclear about the vent device on the main and "letting the air out". can you please clarify what you are asking please?

THANKS so much!

stressedout_steamgirl

Central CT

Hi Dave,

I am in Central CT.

Thanks!

stressedout_steamgirl

Drain

Hi Bob,

In case you didn't notice them, I posted a few more pictures wondering if that is the drain you mentioned.

Please let me know your thoughts when you have a moment.

Thanks so much!



Beth Ann

Rod

Main Vents

Hi- It looks like Bio is right in that there are two returns line. I've attached a labeled photo. Is there a second main vent? Also could you post a photo of the back side of the boiler. (the side opposite the glass sight tube)

- Rod

BobC

I'm not sure

That might be a tie in for the vent but I can't see the top of the pipe to be sure.



It looks like you have a Gorton #1 there and that is good for a 2" main 12 - 15 ft or so long.



Bob

Rod

Boiler Waterline

Hi - Your boiler's waterline looks like it might be a little high though from the photos it's hard to be sure.  You might want to check it.  The Independence waterline should be 28 5/8 inches measured perpendicular to the base (floor)  (See Page 17- Figure 24 in the installation manual)

- Rod

stressedout_steamgirl

Pressure Differential and short cycles

Hi!!! Another question please.... What would you suggest that the pressure and differential should be set at? I can hear the boiler light, it runs for a minute and then it delights again .. Over and over and over again.. Is this right?



Thanks again!

stressedout_steamgirl

Gorton

One more question, in looking at the website, how do I know which size Gorton valve I need for the radiator and which style do you suggest please?

BobC

Boiler to big?

The main setting of the pressuretrol should be 2 psI max and the diferential should be 1 psi, usually both are set as low as they can go.



Steam boilers are rated in BTU's and sq ft of steam. For optimum operation the boilers sq ft of steam should match the EDR (sq ft of radiation) of your radiators. If you tell us the model number of your boiler (In-?) and describe each of your radiators we can tell you how close you are.



List each radiators height, width, depth in inches; and the number of columns deep it is and how many columns wide it is.Also tell us what kind of vent each radiator has on it.



The short cycling you are experiencing can also be cause by inadequate main venting so give us an idea of how long your steam mains re and what size the pipe is (you can just measure the pipe circumference).



If you do have a secnd return pipe tied above the water line that can cause all kinds of problems with the water level which might trip the low water cut off. Does your gauge glass water line bounce around a lot while making steam? Also have you checked in you manual to see where your skim port should be?



Bob