Old house, new boiler, lackluster heat

JoeyT

Three years ago we purchased a 1920 Dutch Colonial that had an an old steam boiler radiator system. Using a VA loan to purchase the house we took advantage of the VA "Energy Efficiency Mortgage" (that allows you to roll the costs of energy efficient improvements into your mortgage) and replaced the original boiler with a Weil-McLain EG-45. The work involved replacing the boiler with very minor work on the piping (they replaced a small section of pipe with cooper pipe but did not alter the system in any way).



The issue is that the system has never been able to heat all the of radiators in the house. To get the rads to heat we need to remove the valves, which helps on most of the rooms but other rads still lag. The contractor initially sent folks to determine the cause, replaced the valves and ran the numbers, but nobody has been able to get the radiators to fully heat.



I recently had another contractor measure and calculate for heating capacity/heat output (using sq ft of EDR). They determined that the boiler is undersized. The square feet radiation for the 11 radiators is 449.46 (316.21 for the column rads and 133.25 for the tube rads). Using BTUs (x240) this equates to 107,870.4 The numbers the installing contractor provided was 93,126 BTUs.



I spoke with Weil-McLain and their engineers do not believe that this small of a difference (the EG-45 vs the EG-50) is the cause of our woes.



Does anyone have any suggestions on what could be the cause?



It is very frustrating to layout the money for a new boiler and not have a properly functioning system.



Thanks in advance.



BTW - Weil-McLain suggested I post on this webpage to help find a solution for our dilemma.

Mark N

Lackluster Heat

It seems that you have a venting issue. Is this a one pipe system? Do you have main vents? What type of vents are on your rads? Getting the proper vents will balance your system. Post some picture of what you've got.

Mark N

Etc.

Also pick up a copy of "We Got Steam Heat" and check under systems tab for steam and check it out.

Dave in QCA

What's the temperature in the house?

First, I am going to assume that you're not comfortable in the house. But, please confirm that. Some people fixate on the fact that the radiators to heat all the way across, even when the temperature in the room is comfortable. In mild weather, they are NOT supposed to heat all the way across. If they did, you'd get way overheated.



Now, the sizing of the boiler is technically undersized for your system given that there is supposed to be an extra 34% for what is called piping loss and pickup. The piping loss is around 10-15% assuming that the mains in the basement are insulated. If yours are not, you should insulate them with proper 1" fiberglass pipe insulation. The remaining 20% or so extra is for "pickup". This is to counteract the way a steam system usually behaves when steam starts to circulate into a cold system and cold radiators. By nature, the distribution will tend to be uneven and problematic. The pickup fact in part is intended to compensate for that.



However, there are other ways to do it. But, first, note that the total BTU of your radiators is 107,870 BTU and the gross output of your boiler is 125,000 BTU. Even if we add 10% for piping loss, were still only at 118,657 BTU. So, if you can get the distribution issue dealt with, you should be able to get even heat to every radiator. In fact, if it is really cold and your boiler is running constantly, the radiators should fell as thought they are completely heated. They may actually be 180 instead of 212, but that's ok. Your house has probably been insulated and storm windows added after the radiators were sized, so they're probably bigger than necessary anyway. The only thing is important is will the system heat the house and can you get even distribution of the steam so that the rooms are all the same instead of some hot and some cold.



There is a very thoughtful article on this subject by Dave Bunnell. If I can find the link on here I will add it to this post.



The essential issues involved with balancing a system with an undersized boiler is twofold. First, the mains need to be vented fast. Depending on the size and length, you need to pick main vents to allow venting with very low back pressure. Of course, given your undersized situation , you're not going to have much of that. The second part of the equation is that the radiators should be very VERY SLOW. Absolutely no fast er than a Hoffman #40. .(042 CFM). Maybe even as slow as a Gorton #4 (.025 CFM) If you can control the flow of the steam, I think you'll find that all of the radiators get warm. Of course, this won't happen instantaneously, steam travels slow. Not only does it have to expel the air in the pipes, but it has to heat the piping up to 212 as the steam goes.

The other thing that I would do, as a double check of things, clock the meter. With all other gas burning equipment shut off, run the boiler and count the turns on the fastest moving needle on the gas meter. You can convert cf per minute to ccf per hour and figure out if your boiler is firing at the design rate. Sometimes there are other issues that cause a boiler to under fire, and of course if you have a small boiler to start with it can create real problems.



Here is the link:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell

ChrisJ

Pictures

I agree 100% with everything Dave said, but was wondering if you could post some pictures of the boiler and its piping?



Even if they didn't change anything I'm curious how its piped.

JoeyT

valves

here are two types of valves we are using - the originals and new "vent-rite"

JoeyT

photos

Here are some photos of the vent that is located on the opposite side of the house from the boiler and some shots of the boiler and immediate piping. Let me know if these pictures are sufficient or if you need others. Thanks for all you help.

Dave in QCA

ventrite settings

The Vent rite settings.... 1 is off. 5 is about equal to the hoffman 40. I am sure that you know that the hoffman when turned upside down is essentially closed. It won't work that way. It must be up-rite, and plumb, to work.



My advice would be to set all of the ventrites at 4-5. unless it is a radiator that is smaller than the rest or it is in a room that you want to be a bit cooler, then set around 2 or 3. If you turn the ventrite up above 5, the system is going to be about of balance and the rest of the radiators may not get any steam at all on a short cycle such as you have in mild weather.

JoeyT

piping

it is a one pipe system.

JoeyT

ventrite settings

I will set as you suggested to see what happens. But I believe I tried that already.



The rads do not heat with the vents attached. I have to remove them to get them going. But once the vents are off the rads get very hot (well...most of the rads). There is one rad that no matter what, it barely heats up. This troubled rad is on the first floor and sits in a sunroom that gets very cold in the winter.

Dave in QCA

Main vent working?

Is the main vent working? put a piece of paper by it the top and see if it flutters. You may even be able to hear it. When steam gets to it, it should click closed. If all is going well, you won't be getting much steam at all into your rads until the main vent closes. Don't be impatient with this process. Rushing the steam into a few radiators WILL keep the problem child from getting any steam at all.



I was working on a house that one radiator would NOT heat at all. The boiler was properly sized too. The problem radiator was in the dining room where the thermostat was also located. Eventually, I adjusted all of the Hoffman 1A vents to the 2 setting. That is the same as the Hoffman 40, and about have of the vents in this house were also 40 vents. The next time the boiler cycled, everything was in balance and the problem radiator that used to stay stone cold even when the boiler ran an hour, now heated just like the rest.

Steam_Starter

The bullheaded...

...tee on top of the boiler certainly isn't helping.  You are throwing wet steam into the system and messing with the pressure in the equalizer on the back side.  I had the same problem.  I broke it apart, piped it properly and it worked wonders on the system.



And the main vent outlet is being choked by that reduced size outlet pipe (looks like 1/4"or 3/8" pipe leading up to the 3/4" piping and fitting to the main vent....?)  No matter what you do, that main vent outlet needs to be repaired.  Your system might be cutting out on pressure and forcing the air vents in the rads to work overtime. 



One thing I am seeing too,  in the second picture of course not related to this topic, are you dealing with carpenter ants?  It looks like they are attacking the joist carrying the load of that quadruple blocking leading to the foundation.  And going back into the first picture, they look like they are working thier way to the foundation in that joist.



Just my $0.02



JLG

JoeyT

The bullheaded...

regarding the tee - how should it be piped?



regarding the main vent - how should it be repaired?



good eye on the carpenter ants. this was an old issue that the previous owners dealt with years ago. what you see are the remnants from the ant ****.

Unknown

another

Another good boiler piped incorrectly.. as others stated, bull headed tee.. can't believe the installer went thru all that trouble without installing a drop header into that tee..

Unknown

another

Another good boiler piped incorrectly.. as others stated, bull headed tee.. can't believe the installer went thru all that trouble without installing a drop header into that tee..

Unknown

another

Another good boiler piped incorrectly.. as others stated, bull headed tee.. can't believe the installer went thru all that trouble without installing a drop header into that tee..

Steam_Starter

I'm not...

I am not a pro by any means but with the skills that I have acquired ( my dad was a NYC firefighter and was a house flipper....I was using a concrete saw to change a sewer lateral in the street at 12 years old...) I picked up a lot here from the pros like JStar, Rod, Steamhead, Jamie and many more) I have come to ,earn a lot about steam systems so please take my advice for what it's worth. I go beyond what the average homeowner would do. And I am not saying you are the average homeowner by I don't know you...jus trying to help out....



There....with that being said, I would do the following:



1) have the bullheaded tee removed. Move the tee back into the lateral. The riser comes out of the boiler, makes a bend, then goes straight into the bullheaded tee....move the tee back into the lateral between the boiler riser and the system loop. Put a tee in and run another header up and into the horizontal above it with an elbow. At the end where the tee was,put an elbow in and return the steam header into the equalizer on the right hand side, facing the boiler. That should solve some of the wet problems you are having.



As for the vent...this is a tricky one. I would cut out that elbow a couple of feet on either side and thread new pipes with unions, a reducing tee and a new elbow. The reducing tee should be moved closer to the boiler on the pipe run...about 15" or so, and a minimum of 3/4" opening out of the tee to a vent. You didn't mention exactly the diameter of the pie and the length of the run...that will determine what you need in regards to venting. Normally, a 3/4" pipe open ended releases about 9.5 cfm (thanks Gerry Gill) but you may not need that if you measure the length of the run from the boiler to the wet return and check the diameter. Rod can give you his cheat sheets that translate the circumference of the pipe to the diameter...then if you post the pipe length including the diameter in 30 mins you will have an answer as to what is the the required cfm of the vent(s) to be put on the end of the main.



Believe me, I know that this all sounds overwhelming....kinda like a "**** did I get myself into?!" But please trust me. I had so many problems with my slow fire steam system when I converted to a Utica myself that through this website I was able to fix them all. The radiators hear evenly and the house is quiet and warm. One thing that ChrisJ has mentioned in past post. This is not the time to say " oh man my radiators don't heat all the way across!" That may never happen. Here in NJ it's not Alaska. My radiators only heat all the way across when it is 20 degrees out and the wind is howling. A properly tuned steam system bleeds so much radiant heat that my system on the coldest days only runs once an hour....maybe. And I love in a colonial built in 1943 with insulation only in the kitchen and the bathroom that I gutted.



I'm sorry I sound so long winded but I will be (as many other on this site) more than happy to help a veteran who protected and defended the freedoms that our country enjoy today.



Good luck and keep posting...all of your questions will be answered and as mike Holmes says...."we will make it right!"



jlg

Dave0176

Repipe

If it were me, I would repipe the boiler the right way, your piping looks very inadequate. First I would run two 2" risers outta the boiler into a 3" header, then two 3"x2" tees into the two mains then a 2" pipe into the equalizer.

Here is a pic of the last job I did a Willianson GSA125 (Weil McLain EG40) If anyone asks, yes those are Malleble tees the darn supply house didn't have cast that day, my luck.

Mark_125

That's boiler-porn right there !!!

Would love it if my boiler could look that good.