Gas conversion burner of choice for a Burnham V-905?

04090

Presently set up for oil and using 4.0 GPH, this 1997 small commercial steam system has operated with a great track record mechanically. 



Would simply like to switch to gas. 



What's the burner of choice?   Faceplate tag reads 668MBH and 4.65GPH

Harper111

It is not permitted and will fail inspection

Burnham strictly forbids any gas conversions.



This is strictly forbidded and Burnham considers this unsafe. Burnham will recommend to any inspector calling to fail any gas conversion attempted on an oil boiler that was not originally fitted with one.



There are plenty of replacement gas approved boilers that Burnham can offer that will certainly pass inspection. A replacement is your only approved option.



If you decide to proceed anyway with a conversion, please be aware your Burnham warranty will be immediately null and void, in addition to all liabilities fall solely on yourself if anything should ever happen.



Do yourself and you family a favor and stick with safer options rather then trying to save a buck.

04090

This one does

This boiler is designed to be set up firing with gas or oil.  Ratings are on the nameplate and referenced in my initial inquiry.



There's a plethora of gas firing conversion burners available, I don't know one from the other worth hoot so am asking here.

Harper111

It depends on how it came out of the factory

Unless the boiler came with the multi-fuel Carlin Oil/Gas burner from the factory, then you will be required to install a whole new boiler. Burnham does not support or certify it any other way. The same previous statement still holds true.

JStar

Gas conversion

Harper, please don't use scare tactics here. It is completely unwarranted and highly misleading.



http://www.burnhamcommercial.com/technical-info/discontinued/discontinued_Technical_Info/literature/v9-series-lit-8-96.pdf



The manual says that it is approved for any fuel type. Please delete your posts.

Tim McElwain

I commisioned a

Gas/Oil for a  905 in a church about a year ago Power Flame model C1-GO-10. If you want5 just gas I think a JR15 Power Flame would be a good choice.

Steamhead

Harper, this isn't the first time

what is your connection to Burnham?

Harper111

Call the manufacturer yourself then!

If it did not come out of the factory in that exact gas supported configuration, the statement still holds true.



The manufacturer is very much against installers and homeowners doing conversions if not originally built to that specification. It is completely unsupported and considered dangerous if not officially approved by the manufacturer and is redesigned like this out in the field.



Do yourself a favor and get yourself a new Burnham boiler that is more efficient and setup for gas already.

BobC

not a concern

Thousands of boilers get converted to gas every year and if the work is done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing and inspected there is no safety risk. If the boiler manual says it can run on gas then that is the end of the story, What could be safer than having a gas burner inside hundreds of pounds of cast iron if it's done correctly?



I had a new Smith boiler installed last year with a gas gun on it and it saved me just about half on my fuel bill compared to the oil setup I had. The gas inspector looked at it and signed off with no quibbles after verifying the gas leak test.



Bob

Steamhead

You keep "harping" on this

but you haven't answered my question:



What is your connection to Burnham? Do you, or do you not, work for that company?

SWEI

The boiler is 16 years old

so how much skin does the manufacturer actually have left in the game?

Harper111

Insurance and Township Code Officials would care

One would bet that their home owner insurance company and township would care that they are running an unapproved configuration and design to a boiler that the manufacturer does not permit nor condone.



But if all parties are willing to take that risk and liability, so be it. Just get it in writing.

Harper111

What does it matter either way?

Friendly advice and different perspectives appear to be what this board is all about.



Best to let the person asking the questions get all inputs and make their own decision.

Harper111

Call Carlin and see what they say

Ask Carlin as well what model burners they officially support for Burnham Oil Boilers for gas conversions.



You will get a consistent story. They are in lock-step with the manufacturer providing the same sound advice. Best to replace the entire boiler if not per manufacturer supported specifications.

Harper111

The point even further substantiated here

"Language from a national code system on installation of gas conversion burners — language adopted by the board and cited in the GAMA letter — that states “in no case should the appliance be modified beyond the recommendation of the appliance manufacturer.”



“In my humble opinion, if you are changing from No. 2 [oil] to natural gas, you are modifying the appliance,” Bangor Fire Chief Jeff Cammack said."



https://bangordailynews.com/2008/09/18/news/oiltogas-switch-heats-up-dispute/



Good luck with it no matter what direction you decide to take.

04090

Gosh.

Thanks, especially to Tim.  I see on other threads that you've done over 3,000 conversions over the years and your recommending the JR15 Power Flame carries clout.  I emailed the company asking if they could recommend someone in the area fluent with installing the product.



The OEM Burnham recommendations are for a Gordon s4.2-G-0, a Power Flame JR15A10 or a Webster JB1G03.  Not having a clue what's proven as reliable over the years, I appreciate the experienced help here.



I think Harper's warning intent is good, but if one takes a look at the article he linked to it's relevant to those switching fuels on boilers that may not designed to be used with gas.  Clearly not applicable here.



It seems on the face of things it would not be cost effective to replace the boiler at this time for something slightly more efficient.  The boiler has been a reliable workhorse and met needs well.  Should I also be looking into replacing it?

Steamhead

It matters

since you always jump into threads about converting Burnhams and say exactly the same thing. Even though, in this case, the boiler manual specifically says the V9 series can be fired with either oil or gas.



So again, do you work for Burnham? If not, what is your motivation?

Tim McElwain

Just find someone

who is reputable to install the burner. This back and forth about Burnham has gotten a little old. The truth is if you change a thermocouple from a Robertshaw to a Honeywell you are changing design and you are liable. There is an ANSI Standard for installing conversion burners it is Z21.8 2002 so go ahead. What is your location perhaps I could recommend someone?

j a_2

My Opinion

This is my opinion only,and its based completely on what I have read and how I interpreted

it…….Page 5 of the online manual is worth the read……My opinion is it is not convertible…The same holds true for residential boilers except it is on page 9.. The book and the A J D has the final say,,in my state…..Maybe different in others…..

Tim McElwain

J A what publication

are you referring to? The one referenced above doe not even have a page 9 ?????

j a_2

v9a series

v9a series boiler online i and o page 5…..That is the boiler in question and again that is how I interpret it…Just giving my opinion…..Final say is the A H J and manufacture of appliances, not me….Hope I helped…Not trying to direct anyone, as this form,to me is the opinions of many pros. like yourself…My reason of interest is I was recently asked to convert exact same boiler…..thats it…As for page 9 of residential it may be page 8 or 9….but its there

Jim Davis_3

Burnham V-905

How many coal boilers were converted to gas or oil without the manufacturers approval?  Why do burner manufacturers call them retrofit burners not replacement burners?

For person that are afraid to do their job should not be in this business.  Burnham's literature specifically states this boiler can be operated with Gas, Oil or Gas/Oil.  Doesn't mention with their permission.

Since when isn't a contractor liable for the work they do??  I don't see manufacturers ever taking the bloame for anything.

I guess if this boiler was steam and you wanted to convert it to hot water that would be a modification that wasn't approved either.

Since when is a Fire Chief an expert boiler/burner man.  I bet he never asks for our help when he is at a fire!!!

Stupid is what stupid does.  If you are stupid, don't do it.  If you are a competent contractor do your job.

I truly believe there should be a catagory on all these HVAC talk sites named:

Mechanical Morons-Submit Your Ignorance

04090

Keeping on track

This post is regarding a Burnham V-905.  I was asking for a recommendation for a brand/model gas burner to have installed as I don't know which over time has a proven track record and is reliable.



Page 7 refers to the various burners the 905 accepts:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEgQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.burnhamcommercial.com%2Ftechnical-info%2Fdiscontinued%2Fdiscontinued_Technical_Info%2Fliterature%2Fv9-series-lit-8-96.pdf&ei=FsZtUuftLdOs4APp1oCoDw&usg=AFQjCNHatCqV0myQ0si-z0rc8ZG_gquKiA&bvm=bv.55123115,d.dmg&cad=rja



The Burnham V9A-xxx series JA refers to is a newer model.



I think JA has good intentions and wouldn't go so far as to be critical.  A quick look shows the similar looking newer V9A series might actually not be a candidate for conversion.  Regardless, Google search results mix the V9A with the V905, and it's easy to fall off track.





--------------





Added:  What I believe JA found, and from the 2010 V9A series boiler installation manual, page 5.  This is not the boiler we own, but has a similar model series number:



"This boiler is designed to burn No. 2 fuel oil, natural and/or LP gas only. Do not use gasoline, crankcase drainings, or any oil containing gasoline. Never burn garbage or paper in this boiler. Do not convert to any solid fuel (i.e. wood, coal). Do not convert to any gaseous fuel (i.e. natural gas, LP)."

Bob Harper

call mfr

The mfr can advise you if this unit is approved or not for a gas conversion burner. Note that often a mfr. will not list a gas conversion not because it is a problem but they didn't want to spend the money to test it. Unless a mfr. issues a written warning specifically forbidding gas conversion then it may be allowed. Technically, you are supposed to present your documents to the AHJ and have him sign off. As for the liability, yes, there is liability with everything you touch, even where the mfr. tested, listed or otherwise approved it. As one who works in product liability, let me just say that a listing is not a guarantee of safety or performance and a testing  lab can issue a listing even when a unit fails-trust me.

To reduce your liability the most while affording the most protection for your client, perform combustion analysis.

HTH

Jim Davis_3

gas burner

The Power Flame burner would be an excellent choice.  I sold Power Flame and Burnham for many years and found they perform quite well together.

Hundreds of thousands of pieces of equipment have been modified over the years for many different reasons.  With proper care and proper combustion analysis there never were any problems.  The skill of the technician play the biggest part in whether something will work properly or not, not the suggestions of others that have never done the work. 

04090

Thanks!

With Tim and Jim suggesting a Power Flame, that's it.  Off to find an installer.



Thank you!

Jim Davis_3

Modifying Equipment

As Bob knows, there are no manufacturers that approve any modifications to their equipment in the field.  I think that should already be known by those on here after reading the fiasco with the Rinnai water heater.

Once in a while a local code official will be open minded about some of the things we do, but then someone that has very little knowledge about the mechanical operation of equipment is hardly the person I look to for advice or approval.

As soon as a manufacturer says it is okay to do something they become liable.  This is not going to happen.  It is their job to cover their butts and it is our job to cover our butts.

Competent and qualified contractors should not be afraid to do their job.  There would be a whole lot of dead people out there if I had let others dictate what can and can't be done in the field.  The field is not a lab with fixed conditions.  Infinite variables rely on infinite adjustments and modifications.  Changing from an oil burner to a gas burner on a boiler that is approved for both shouldn't be considered any problem at all.  Timmy knows and Bob knows and I know.