Ultra fin Radiant heating

mikegee

I m building a 6000 sq ft home in NY. It was suggested that i use Ultra Fin System as a primary heating

The manufacturer provided a heat loss estimate, and suggest 3700 ft of 3/4 PEX with 2100 pairs of plate

plates

floors will be tile and wood

I m concerned with making sure that this system will be able to heat the house properly.

Should I use any additional wall radiators to be supplemented to the radiant?

Anyone with Ultra Fin Experience in the NYC area?

Should I use a condensing or a modulating boiler??

Thanks

Gordy

At what point

Are you in the building Phase?



There are other RFH methods besides Ultrafin that have higher outputs at lower water temps, and more responsive. you need to be cautious of floor temps with your wood floors. Are they solid, or Engineered wood floors?



And last question is WHY are you concerned?

mikegee

Ultra fin Radiant heating

the house is framed and roof  and windows installed.

All joist and walls are open

Can you suggest another RF system, and possibly someone in my area that can install it/

Thanks

mikegee

Ultra fin Radiant heating

I m concerned because i was unable to speak to anyone that has a similar system installe din my area, and no professional that has installed same 

hot_rod

Ultra Fin

I found it was easier to pull a pex loop into every joist bay, instead of threading a single tube thru every joist.



I installed the Ultra Fin on only one run per joist bay. It did take more tube but I felt better with fin every joist bay, 16" on center. I also added some ThermoFin under the large glass wall in the living room. Same loop, I just jumped the tube up into the transfer plates on the high load area.



I'm in a milder climate in Missouri and I connected it to a Lochinvar Knight running 140F supply.



It real tough to make tubing or heat emitter additions after the sheet rock is up. I'd error with additional tube and UF and run lower temperature supply, allowing for some wiggle room on below design conditions.

Zman

Joist trak

The best type of product for underfloor heating in an aluminum plate like Uponer Joist trak. You can run these at much lower temps than Ultra Fin. Low temps is the key to maximizing the efficiency of condensing boilers.

I would strongly suggest finding a designer who can perform a heat loss calculation of your project and then properly design your system. You will be spending a great deal of money on this system, I just a few hours a good designer could be sure your system runs perfectly.

Carl

mikegee

Ultra fin Radiant heating

carl

can you recommend a good designer.I m very concerned about getting this done the right way.

Have you had any experience with the Ultra Fin  System or heard about it??

I do have the time to get this done right . Just completed the framing only

Thanks

Mike

Rich_49

Mike

Where in NY are you ?   You could have this designed by someone and then find a competent installer in your area .  You said The fine people at Ultra Fin designed a system for you . May I ask if they performed a room by room heat loss of the property ? If they did not they have no idea what to design unless you sent them ALL the INFORMATION REQUIRED to perform the heat loss calculations .

mikegee

Ultra fin Radiant heating

hi Rich

I m building in Nassau County New York. about 5 miles east of JFK.

Ultra fin did a room by room heat loss calculation s from my floor plans and elevations

They did include the loss for all windows, glass and openings.

I do have a detailed Ultra Calc Room Report.

can you recommend someone to design the system properly, check their calculations or suggest a better way of doing this.

This js a house I plan to use myself, and it has to be doen right

Thanks

Zman

Ultra fin

Mike,

I have not and would not do a ultra fin system. The problem is you are heating the air space rather than the surface. I am sure they work just fine if you run the water hot enough. The whole point of radiant is efficiency and comfort.

Many supply houses will help with designs or make a recommendation.

You could also check with these guys http://www.radiantprofessionalsalliance.org/Pages/default.aspx

As Rich said, if they are not doing a heat loss, they are just guessing.

Carl

mikegee

Ultra fin Radiant heating

Carl

Ultra Fin did a heat loss calculations from my floor plans. The calculations includes the floor covering in each room as well as windows and doors.

 and Provided a Room by Room detail report

I m just concerned since I was not able to speak to any one in the Northast that actually  did install the  system or and end user that has the system

Can you recommend a designer or someone that can install a radiant heating system

thanks

Rich_49

Mike

I contacted you privately . If you wish please contact me with the information I sent you by phone or email .  I am in Jersey and can possibly assist you

Rich_49

Sensibility

After much research on your part I would guess you decided to go with radiant heating for comfort and efficiency . Correct me if I am mistaken .  You did some research on the internet and found Ultra Fin and the marketing and the promise of a more economical install and first cost caught your attention . Welcome to the wortd of marketing or as I like to call it , SPIN.. Our industry is full of it , everyone on The Wall can verify this .  Think about this , water can and does carry 3,470 x more heat than an equivalent unit of air . You will be depending on heating a huge mass of air that does not hold heat well before you will feel a damn thing . To put it in size terms , your home is 6000 sq feet , all radiant , 4 inch air space acting as your heating medium , all that air must be heated before any meaningful heat transfer can take place . You are in essence heating an 82.5 sq ft room that does not exist all the time and this room must satisfy before any of the real rooms get any heat that you will perceive . Sound efficient to you ?   That air space will also cool very rapidly after the thermostat satisfies and it will start all over again . It will require water temps that are not conducive to condensing equipment so you will lose that efficiency factor also .  It is just all around not a good idea in my opinion and I am not alone

hot_rod

UltraFin

has been around since the early 1990's. In the proper application it works well, and it does not always require 180F operating temperatures. I't all about the loads and appropriate design.



It's a step or two above the "dangled tube" suspended bare tube method that Wirsbo promoted, and another DIY company up New England way. Both are still in business and selling millions of feet of tube



Actually when you view a UltraFin installation through the lens of an infrared camera it has an amazingly consistent floor temperature, no striping like some plate, or staple up rubber tube installations.

Tombig_8

Ultra Fin

Tom from Chicago chiming in to a year old post here. Hey there old timers Gordy and Hot Rod. I have quite a few Ultra Fin jobs under my belt since the 90's. GC's and architects I work with here prefer this method because it requires no structural modifications (overpour) and easily installs around the other trades.



Some of these jobs we removed standing iron radiators, installed tubing and Ultra Fin emitters and kept the high temperature cast iron boiler. Others we installed modulating, condensing boilers with high temperature distribution, effectively negating their efficiency. Proper engineering, installation, and insulation left a bunch of happy customers.



All of my "system efficiency" arguments regarding lower boiler temps fell on deaf ears as these jobs were brought to construction. If you are building new with a new boiler, then have your architect plan for the weight and floor height of an over pour with embedded tubing, regardless of floor covering. Depending upon where you live you might be able to heat your home with 85-95* boiler water which would maximize the boiler efficiency.



Just saying....

J.R. Madden

I installed only one (1) Ultra Fin job. It was done in one of my boys new home. The "conventional" boiler heats a radiant floor holding tank. Tank temperature is controlled by outdoor temp. The system keeps the 2 story 3500 sq.ft. home comfortable at -25°F. There are no "streaks" of heat like many RF delivery systems.The key to a properly installed system Ultra Fin, or other, is the insulating and air sealing of the band joist, as well as adequate and proper insulating below the fins/plates or tubing. If the information you sent to Ultra Fin was accurate then the heat loss calculations will be correct. At outdoor temperatures below 10°F the system we installed needs water temperatures above the dew point of flue gasses so a conventional "non condensing" boiler should be used. We chose to use a thermal storage tank so that when heat load is small we can warm the floors with low temperature water and not condense flue gasses in the conventional oil fired boiler.

Paul Pollets

I'd consider other methods before using UltraFin. Viega Climate Panels, Uponor QuickTrak, or a suspended system using heavy duty transfer plates will outperform Ultrafin. You'll (or the contractor) need to do a heat loss calc using specific radiant software to correctly determine required water temps and flow rates. The software tells if the chosen radiant application can satisfy the heat requirements of each room.
Try and find a quality contractor in your area that has expertise.

DuchessofDartmouth

Just installed a $K ($K + 20% to GC) hydronic Ultra Fin and Runtal radiator system to my house in San Francisco. My gas bill has doubled from my old forced air heater. My house is so cold I have to wrap myself in an afghan to watch TV and I wear a down jacket in my office if I'm on my computer. My floor is warm and small rooms are warm (bathrooms and a 10 X 10 bedroom). After about 6 months had a leak in my garage - nail from hardwood floor. GC still haven't replaced the ceiling that got wet. My newly refinished hardwood floors cracked. (GC didn't run heat at all before refinishing AND some of the old floors had water damage which he knew about) GC's hardwood guy said even if the floors warm up he cannot guarantee his work on radiant heat. The installer didn't know a thing about Runtals - he initially hooked the towel warmers up to the floor system. I moved in in April and right away I noticed the towel warmers didn't come on as the floor heat was only on for an hour at 5:30 am. I made him hook downstairs bathroom towel warmer up to the upstairs living room Runtal radiators thermostat so at least I can close the upstairs radiators, crank up the thermostat and warm my towels. (Now that is is cold I'm leaving the bathroom door open in the master so the 48" towel warmer can "boost" the floor heat in the bedroom) I demanded that he install two small radiators in my TV room and my office (one I decided I didn't need for my living room, the other was a mistake - he ordered the wrong color) so I have heat the three months of the year it gets down to 50 degrees in San Francisco. Still waiting - last time he was here he hooked up on Runtal in my living room and the towel warmer in the upstairs bathroom. The towel warmer is also hooked up to the floor system and need to be redone. Oh, he isn't taking sheetrock off the basement ceiling to run the new tubing - just stringing it across the ceiling. Initially I wanted just Runtal radiators but the heating contractor and my GC talked me out of it: "Sure you can combine floor and Runtals - no problem!" (you shouldn't - they run at different PSI) "Never had a problem with hardwood floors." The GC's hardwood guy was the first to say "I can't guarantee my work with radiant" "With Ultra Fin you don't have cold spots." Yes you do. It doesn't generate enough heat to heat a 1,250 sq ft house - IN SAN FRANCISCO! Maybe, in theory, if designed and installed correctly, Ultra Fin can heat your house in winter and not jack up your gas bill. Maybe.

Paul Pollets

Radiators run at warmer temps than a radiant floor. Usually the heating appliance is piped with 2 different temperatures to make sure each reaches design temperatures. It's possible to use the same temp for both emitters, but not often done. BTW, it's a temperature difference, not PSI. What's your heat source?

hot_rod

Was a heat load calculation performed? Also a design including floor coverings in the various areas?

As long as the heat load is within the performance output of the UtraFin it should heat fine, be comfortable and energy efficient.

Plenty of qualified hydronic specialist in your area, Alan Forbes hangs out here, you need a pro to confirm the design and installation.

GroundUp

Sounds like you got incredibly screwed. Water temp is likely too low, or there is not enough plate- possibly both. Find a real heating guy and have it inspected, it may be as simple as turning up the water temp but from the sounds of things there are plenty of problems that need addressing. I can tell you one thing; if my contractor charged me 5x what a job was worth and then it was screwed up bad enough that it didn't work I'd be getting it professionally repaired and heading for the courthouse in very short order