Separate returns?

Fizz

Richardson system with combined dry returns from long and short loops sharing same Gorton #2 vent.  Would separating returns be more efficient?  If so, can return from long loop(2nd picture) be dropped to right of copper dry run for dedicated return? 

Thanks,

Fizz

JStar

Vapor

Are you having distribution problems? I would say that it's not necessary unless you are experiencing some type of issue. I would think about adding a few more Gorton #2's. That'll give you the biggest bang for the buck. How long are the steam and return mains?

Fizz

Main lengths

Steam mains(including risers and  laterals) measure 151 for long main, and 56 for short main.  Dry returns are 97 for long and 35 for short. Also have bull T on near system riser splitting long and short runs, thinking of getting this correct, but wonder if worth it.  Attached radiation is 234 edr for long and 144 for short. Answer to your question, only  problem is one rad which only heats when another rad is off.  Hope to get this corrected this month, as problem is well documented, and consensus is pipe-sizing.

nicholas bonham-carter

Bang for the buck

1.enough gorton 2's to register a back-pressure of 1-2 ounces during the venting phase ( 4&3?).

2. A 0-3 psi gauge next to the pressuretrol, on the same pigtail, keeping the useless 0-30 gauge for code purposes.

3.insulation for the supply pipes.

4. Set the pressure as low as it can go. Unfortunately the standard pressuretrol can disengage the linkage if adjusted down too far; and that allows the pressure to shoot up to whatever the secondary is set for!!! A vaporstat is more exact for this, but may set you back 15 pictures of Andrew Jackson!--NBC

Jamie Hall

If it were mine...

I'd leave it alone and add more venting, if necessary, at the location of the existing vent.  That will be a lot less expensive and, unless you are having other trapping problems it will work just as well.  And, of course, if you are having other trapping problems splitting the returns won't help anyway...

Fizz

Venting at low pressure

Thanks for quick replies and advice.  During heating season operating between 1-3 oz, as we added vaporstat and low pressure gauge(32oz).  Don't know if more venting will help as last year I ran system with vent pipe open with no difference in performance.  Also, bullhead T on system riser, any problem staying with it, or is it more efficient to re-pipe?

JStar

Boiler

What model boiler do you have?

Jamie Hall

Is that bullhead

a situation where the steam comes in the leg and out both ends of the arms of the T?  If so, that's not a problem.  It's the other way around that can be a real problem...



However, if this is a situation with a single riser, it really should go into a header (preferably a drop header) and the two (I presume) steam mains take off from that header separately, and then the header should turn and drop down as the equalizer.  A picture would help.



On the venting and split returns -- if you are running a few ounces, and running with an open pipe instead of a vent doesn't help much, you're just fine right where you are.  Sit back and enjoy.

Fizz

Bullhead from W-M SGO 6

which was converted to gas 12/12.  The bullhead is pictured in posting titled Main Lengths above, think it's ok Jamie.  I'm feeling better about my situation as heating season comes.  Thanks to all for feedback!



Fizz

JStar

SGO-6

The SGO-6 requires a minimum of a 3" header. Looks like you only have 2.5".



And, yes, the bullheaded tee in the picture is incorrect. You are almost certainly making wet steam right there, which could be causing capacity issues.

Fizz

Header and bullhead T

J you are right, 3" header is reccommended, and T incorrect.  Now been running system for 11 yrs, only problem occasional clicking in mid cycle,lasts 8-10 seconds, and one radiator won't heat if other is open.  Is it fiscally sound to make corrections at this time.  Cyclel in heating season runs from 18 min in early fall and mid-spring, to 25-35 min in winter.  Live in Northeast Pa.

JStar

Steam

It's always fiscally viable to make improvements. The undersized header and bullhead tee could be the cause of the radiator issue. Wet steam is a capacity killer.

Fizz

Capacity issue

Is it still an issue being that my connected load is 518sf, and boiler is rated 640.  As you can surmise, guys who put in boiler were not "steamheads"!  When we changed gun to Wayne gas, we fired at 189K which is less than 250K recommended by Wayne conversion chart for 1.75gpm nozzle.  By capacity issue, are you referring to water useage or steam supply.  Really haven't had any water issue.

JStar

Capacity

Steam capacity.



No matter what size the boiler is, you can only make as much dry steam as the piping will allow. Wet steam can turn a big boiler into a tiny boiler.

Fizz

Wet steam

How does one know if the system is producing wet steam?

JStar

Wet steam

Some radiators never get hot. The temperature never maintains set point. Water hammer or water noises. Spitting air vents.



Is the problem radiator sharing a supply line with the other radiator?

Fizz

Supply line saring

Yes.  Actually the problem was documented in past.  The problem radiator is on 2nd floor at end of run-out from main.  There are 3 other rads connected to run-out, and one of the other 3 was an add-on to an existing lateral which fed original Richardson System radiator.  The add-on has a traditional trap.  If the add-on is turned-off completely, the problem radiator heats.  This the only time it heats, if the add-on is open ever so slightly, or if I put an orifice in it it doesn't matter.  If I turn off the original Richardson radiator to which line the add-on was piped, it doesn't help. Dan suggested replacing feed and laterals with larger sized pipes, as the run-out is 3/4", as are laterals off it.

JStar

Steam

Well, then I would highly suspect that as the problem. Did anybody ever determine the proper size piping?

Fizz

Piping

I hope to have someone over this week to get estimate on changing pipe size.  If I remember correctly Dan suggested 2" feed and 11/4 laterals.  It's in one of the replies on my site, I will have to go back to get specifics.  Thanks for your feedback.