leaking steam pipe possibly asbestos

dabrakeman

I have an 1890 home in Michigan with a single pipe steam system.  Noticed a leak in the basement from a 8 ft section of 1 1/4" pipe.  The pipe is covered with a ratty canvas like insulation secured loosely with wrapped string.

Until I get the wrapping off I can't tell for sure where in the section the leak is from (dripping mostly from center but seems momre likely the origin should be at a fitting?).  Immediate issue is not knowing whether this is asbestos wrap and if it is whether there is a relatively safe way of removing this insulation so work can begin.  I attached a photo if it helps.  If it had to be removed professionally any idea how much 10 feet or so might set me back?  Recommendations of who in SE Michigan?

Once off where can I get 1 1/4" black iron unions and piping cut to length and threaded (or is the equipment rentable?

Ban

Where

is the house located?

dabrakeman

Howell

Howell.

Jamie Hall

There's a pretty good chance

that that stuff contains asbestos.  It might not, but it was pretty common in the good old days.



Whether it has to be removed professionaly or not depends a lot on how fussy you -- and others you may have to interact with -- are.  Technically, in most jurisdictions you need all sorts of training and licenses and specialized equipment and I don't know what all else.  Practically, however, the problem is potential dust and fibers (which really aren't nice).  I would suggest getting it soaking wet, then (while wearing a dust mask) placing a sheet of poly or somesuch under it, cutting the strings, lowering it into the poly, wrapping it up, and then re-wrapping it in a very heavy duty trash bag and sealing it.  Use a sponge and a bucket to get any remaining goop off the pipe (or floor... or you...).  This leaves the question of what do you do with the bag, which now contains a listed hazardous waste.



But at least you can work on the pipe...

BobC

I've done this

I've used a little dish washing liquid mixed with water (tablespoons per gallon) to wet everything down. It's best done with one person spraying (I used a tank type garden sprayer) and the other removing. Wear a mask and work slowly and carefully so everything stays together.



Asbestos is hazardous if not handled carefully, but if you take precautions you are usually fine and your wallet has not been significantly lightened.



Bob

dabrakeman

step one done

Had a good fine particulate rubber/cannister mask, gloves, hat, change of clothes and alot of spray bottles.  Soaking every inch of the way.  Going to still have to do some wet mopping and hosing on floor and foundation ledge since inevitably some wet grime dripped about which would likely contain some particles once it dries. 

After the pipes dry at least now I can start to see where exactly the leak is coming from.



Well, that didn't take long.  I've got Old Faithfull right in the middle of the 8 ft run.  Pinhole toward the bottom.



Any recommended temporary patch products or techniques?

Hap_Hazzard

Pinhole

My approach to fixing a pinhole leak has always been to drive a sheet metal screw into it. If it leaks, try a bigger screw. If there's nothing there to catch the threads you can always try a piece of old inner tube and a hose clamp.



When you get around to fixing it for good, make sure you put a hanger where this hole formed. It wouldn't have rusted through there if there hadn't been a sag there. It's probably had water in it constantly for 120 years.

Hap_Hazzard

Just curious

How do you dispose of asbestos one you've removed it?

dabrakeman

in sealed plastic

trash bag in basement right now.  Haven't figured it out further yet.



Until I can get to replacing the section of pipe (can't remember if the groundhog saw his shadow or not...)  I have applied an epoxy wrap.  Will know once I turn the heat back on whether it worked or not (Home Depot recommended it for this purpose but the reviews on the product I saw were not very good).



When it comes to replacing the pipe section (about 3-4 ft worth) are there particularly good pipe cutting and pipe threading tools that can be rented?  The pipe runs within a few inches of the brick wall so there is not alot of clearance room. 

Hap_Hazzard

As old as it is, I'd replace the whole 8'.

Any section of pipe that actually rusts through is pretty far from sound. I'd be surprised if you could cut threads in it without breaking it. An 8" length of pipe is not going to break the bank, and you can get it cut and threaded for you. That will save you the time and expense of renting or buying the tools and threading it yourself. All you really need is a reciprocating saw and a couple of pipe wrenches (one to hold the fitting and the other to turn the pipe).

BobC

Replace it all

I agree with Hap, your chance of threading old pipe in place is not good. Wait till spring to work on this if at all possible.



Your best off to replace the entire section, take note of the condition of the pipe you are replacing as well at pipe your trying to tie back into. If it's all badly corroded you could have a bigger job than you think.



Bob

Jamie Hall

Oh yes please

replace the whole length.  It's not worth doing anything else.



And unless there is a very very handy union somewhere -- which isn't all that likely -- may I respectfully suggest doing it in two sections, joined by a union in the middle?  Or somewhere handy?  Otherwise you may fnd that you have to disassemble an alarming amount of pipe to get to a point where you can start screwing things back together -- and that may be much more easily said than done.

SWEI

disposal

Call your local landfill and ask if they can accept it.  If not, they will know who can.  Ask them what they require as far as packaging - typically something like double layer 6mil bags with tape.  If you live in a city you'll probably need an environmental permit to move it as well.  The process is not particularly expensive, but you have to dot the I's and cross the T's in order to end up with a proper chain of custody and disposal receipt.  It's worth it.

dabrakeman

Choices

The choice comes down to:

1) replacing the entire section (2 pieces joined in the middle with a union), or,

2) replacing the middle 3 ft which would entail threading old pipe on both ends in place and using two unions



I sense to most of you option 2 sounds silly.  My issue, however, is that I am dubious about the success of removing either end of the existing 8 ft spance from the existing fittings.  On one end (toward radiator) is a T and on the other (toward boiler) is an elbow in a hard to access corner.  The T looks pretty corroded and one of the lines out of the T also looks pretty coroded.  On the other end the elbow connects in to another 16 ft section of ?? wrapped (and in places hard to get to) pipe. I see potential for an ever expanding series of busted fittings and pipes.



I may have no choice but to do option 1 if unable to thread the existing pipe ends, but, the pipe does appear noticeably better in terms of outer scaling outside of a 1 ft section where the leak is at.



I'm no plumbing expert but have restored a few old houses in the last 30 years.  I've become conservative where it appears doing the "right thing" might likely enlarge the project beyond what you thought the right thing was.  There eventually will be a time for full system replacement (dont' want it to be now).

BobC

You can rent the tools

I googled renting a pipe threading machine and found this -



http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/category.aspx?id=s13



Those rates look awfully cheap but I wonder if the dies are extra. In any case do it when there is no further need for heat because these things always take longer than we would expect.



Let us know how you make out and good luck with the project.



Bob

Hap_Hazzard

Threaders

I wonder if he'd be better off with a manual threader. Anything that uses power could twist and break things before you could stop it. With old pipe I'm especially worried about the seam coming apart and getting up against the edge of a die. I've seen it happen.

Hap_Hazzard

Fittings

Any unions you add should be supported with hangers, and I mean proper hangers, not perf strap, clevis hangers or split rings. Clevis hangers are easier to adjust.



When you get done with this you should run the system through a full heating cycle so you can check for leaks. Leave yourself enough time to fix any leaks that might pop up in other parts of the system before the next heating season.

dabrakeman

power vs manual

I was kind of wondering the same thing.  Having not done this before I planned on getting a number of practice pieces to work on either way.  Seems like it would come down to which is less likely to put inadvertant "non-threading" forces into the pipe.  I would assume both would have something to to back the pipe with?  The power units are pretty heavy though.

dabrakeman

temporary fix

Thanks for all your help.



Just on a side note it appears the RectorSeal Pipe Repair kit from HD is holding up after 24 hours of use (knocking on wood as I write).  Luckily I read beforehand all the bad reviews for the product which claim the wrap becomes unworkable after 2 minutes, so, I just wrapped fast as hell.  Holding fine even though the kit  was supposedly only good for 1" max pipe so I ended up with less wraps than recommended.

MTC

Pipe threaders

If your local HD has a tool rental section, they rent a really nice ridgid manual set that goes up to 2" for I think $14 or $16/day or so. Its a good deal.



Do what it takes to get that whole pipe removed. And take that elbow too while your at it. Just break the elbow by holding one sledge against one side of it, and slamming the fitting on the other side with a heavy sledge. Then you'll just have to worry about getting it out of the Tee on the other side.

MTC

Oh,

and if you're only doing that one pipe, I'd measure it from fitting hub to fitting hub first, and take that measurement to wherever you're getting your pipe. Explain that you need 2 pipes (get an idea of where you want the union to be) with a union in the middle that will be a total of that length plus the insert into the fitting on each end (can't remember off hand how far a 1.25 inserts). You should be able to figure it out with the pipe and unions in hand.



Then you won't even need a threader. I'd figure all that out before removal, then attempt removal, then go to store for parts, so you can get more crap and threaders etc if needed.