cleaning my burners

Zach_2

Over the course of the winter I have noticed the flame color on my Weil McClain EG-65 become less and less blue.  Now they appear to be more orange than blue.  I am pretty certain I have dirty burners.



I plan to shut down the boiler this evening and clean the burners off.  Do I just take the front panel off and lift out each of the burner tube to vacuum/brush off?  Looking through the manual, that sounds like that is all there is to it. 



I should point out that I have I have both smoke and CO detectors in basement which are not alarming.  I am not as worried about combustion byproducts as I am about poor heating of the boilers due to overfiring.



Any tricks I should know in advance?

ALIGA

that should be all

if you have a spark ignition, that burner may be a little more difficult.

Zach_2

How?

How so? (And how would I know what type of ignition I have?)

vaporvac

Standing pilot

If you have a standing pilot you DON'T have spark ignition.

MTC

spark ignition

if you have spark ignition (no standing pilot, as stated already), there will be an ignitor wire going down from the controls inside the boiler panel to a spark ignitor on one or more of the burner tubes. Its usually just mounted on a little bent piece of metal that has a sheet metal screw or two holding it to the burner. You have to remove this, and remember which bay it goes back into when you put it back together.



if you're going to take on this job, be sure you get those burners seated properly again. Its usually not too hard, but sometimes can be a bit tricky.

cn30

flame color

You might try opening a window first--could be lack of oxygen. A while ago I noticed orange flames rather than blue and I was thinking I had dirty burners or dirt being sucked up. But then it occurred to me to crack open a couple of windows that I had almost completely shut as the weather got colder. That (I think) did it, as the flames are now blue again. I didn't clean anything.

Tim McElwain

ORANGE in the flame is

not a problem, it is usually the result of shuffling around in front of the burners and stirring up the dust and rust the ORANGE is just that burning off. YELLOW is a problem as it indicates improper adjustment of air or perhaps dirty primary air openings on the burners. Do not bother to take apart a system with orange in the flame as it serves no purpose.

Zach_2

All done

Well got them all cleaned out. Pretty dusty with blocked vent holes. I have attached a picture of the worst one for your enjoyment. The flame color looks great now. See attached.

SWEI

combustion analysis

Just curious...

Hap_Hazzard

How's the water level?

That rust could be cause for concern. Are you by any chance losing a lot of water from your boiler? Did you clean out your flueways at the beginning of the season?

Tim McElwain

That flame does not look very good to

me it is yellow which means high levels on Carbon Monoxide. You need to get a professional to look at your system and make sure they do combustion testing. The rusted burners indicates either a long wet time on firing, a leak, or low return water temperature along with just poor combustion. How is the environment the equipment is operating in do you have a washer or dryer nearby? Are there any chemicals open in the area of the combustion zone. GET A PRO THE LIFE YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN!

Zach_2

No

No chemicals in the area at all. There is a washing machine and dryer on the basement but it is in a completely different part closed off by a door. There is a CO meter next to boiler reading 0 and another one at the top of the basement stairs, also reading zero.



If there is currently a leak it would be tough to prove. Auto water feeder never runs and the level in the sight glass stays exactly in the middle. There was previously a foundation leak/bad basement window on that side of the boiler. Perhaps the sitting water around the boiler caused that? Only one of the burners had rust on it. All of the others were just dusty.



Likewise, I am not going to open a window to give my boiler "more oxygen." Any burner efficiency gained would be quickly lost to the below freezing air coming in.



Not sure if flue ways were cleaned last year as we didn't own the house at that time. Is it something I can do easily myself? Cleaning the burners only took about 20 min, so I am willing to tackle a quick project like that tonight if I need to.



I am not quite sure what the CO freak out is about. The flames are solid blue for about 1.5-2 inches with a cooler yellow tip. Looks pretty good to me.

Pughie1

CO

You're going at this backwords pal, you deffinitely should be worried about

byproducts of combustion (CO) ahead of combustion effeciency. Timmy is

the best & if he makes a statement like that pay attention. Otherwise don't

bother these guys anymore



     P.S.  you got any kids?

                                                                                  John Pughe

Tim McElwain

Zach you can do what ever you want

I am just a guy who has been working on gas systems and teaching about them since I was 9 years old. I am now 73 years old. GET A PRO TO LOOK AT YOUR SYSTEM.  Hey he might even save you some money.

vaporvac

color no indicator

The flame color is not necessarily the best indicator. This is especially true on newer systems. A pro will do a proper combustion analysis which requires specialized equipment. Many writing to this site thought they were OK based on flame colour only to find out they weren't.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw those pictures and said "whoa". I'm a homeowner and when my burners looked like the one you showed, it was because I had a leak in the boiler. Kudos for cleaning them as you could have lost your house and life if gas collected in them, pooled at the base and suddenly exploded. I almost had that situation. I replaced the burners immediately and will soon (I hope) be replacing my boiler. Good luck. CTD

Hap_Hazzard

Cleaning flueways

Yes, this is something you can do yourself, and it needs to be done at the start of every heating season. You just need some special brushes to do it, but these are available in a variety of places. They're basically like tube brushes with very long handles. You should have a wire one and a bristle one. The OEM should include instructions on how to get at the flueways.



The flueways are where the heat is transferred from the hot exhaust gases to the cast iron, which then transfers it to the water. They are like long, narrow, curved passages lined with bumps about the same size and shape as a new pencil eraser. These bumps increase the surface area so it can absorb more heat. In order to do that, the hot gases need to be able to pass through and around those little bumps. It doesn't help if dirt and rust build up in there, and it does. Water vapor in the exhaust causes rust, and any dirt that filters down the chimney can find its way in there. If you don't keep it clean, you're wasting fuel.



BTW, the suggestion to get your CO levels checked is a good one. You can't tell about the composition of your flue gases by looking at the flame. They wouldn't need combustion analyzers if you could. You need to get a gas guy in who has a combustion analyzer and knows how to use it. Have him check the exhaust gas composition (including CO), the flue temperature (if it doesn't get hot enough it will rust out) and check for spillover at the draft hood. Or just say you want a complete combustion analysis. This is also something that should be done every year. If he doesn't find any problems, that's great. That's what you want to hear. It means you have nothing to worry about, and to me, that's worth paying for.

Zach_2

Hmm...

Keep in mind that you are using the color of flames in a picture I posted on the internet to claim that you tell detect CO better than TWO separate CO detectors sitting next to the boiler in question.



My boiler isn't perfect, but it is NOT spewing out CO.



I fail to see what a professional HVAC person is going to do for me. 

1. All of the ports are clean on the burner bars, the NG injectors are clean. 

2. The boiler is not over or underfiring

3. I get steam at the end of my mains in about 10 min after startup

4. All of the rads in the house get hot at the same time

5. The mains and header are all insulated

6. Both main vents have been significantly upgraded



Yes, I will need to clean my flueways this spring when I shut it down.  Yes, I need to redo the near boiler piping. The boiler is just not that complicated of a device.



Keep in mind, the last HVAC person who WORKED on my boiler complete screwed up the near boiler piping. The last HVAC person I TALKED TO said I should just tear it all out and put in a forced air system.  He couldn't even identify the main vent and kept saying that I need to "purge the air." (1 pipe steam system, come on!)



There are a lot of very experienced people on this forum and I greatly appreciate all of the guidance and advice.  However, none of them live or work in St. Louis. Please excuse me if I don't trust every/any HVAC contractor in my area to even remotely understand what they are looking at.

Zach_2

another picture

In all fairness to internet picture diagnosis, I decided that my original picture was not that representative of reality.  I just used my iPhone and I think the shutter speed was pretty slow, making the flames look more orange.  I got out my trusty Nikon where I can control the shot better and retook it.  See attached.

Dave in QCA

Pictures do not present Normal Conditions

Zach,  Everyone is alarmed when they see in your pictures, and I am too.  I will add my two cents on this subject.



First, the picture of your dirty burner, with the red rusty crud all at the back half of the burner is not the way burners get dirty from normal use in a boiler that is good condition.  Usually, the crud that will collect is darker in color and it will a fine grit that will collect uniformly along the length of the burner.  Now, I cannot say that your boiler has a leak in it from only looking at this picture or your burner.  But, a boiler that has a leak above the water line will produce a lot of red rusty colored crud in the immediate area of the hole.  It will fall down through the flue passage and land on the burner.  Were all of the burners like that?  I would guess that they weren't, rather 2-4 burners is more likely.



Also, if your boiler has a leak, the crud will collect in the flue passages in the immediate area of the hole and will start to close up the flue.  This will cause the flames to burn yellow because there is not enough draft to provide proper gas air mixtures.  Even though you have cleaned the burner and the venturi areas are clean, etc., etc., if the flue passage is partially blocked, it will cause yellow flames and partial combustion, and a high CO mix in the combustion byproducts.  If this is what is going on in your boiler...  the next thing that will happen is this.  The flue will get so blocked that the flames will begin to roll out of the combustion chamber and up in the cabinet area above the burners.  I would guess there is wiring in there.  It can catch on fire or melt.  Melted wiring can short out and sometimes bypass your safety controls causing the boiler to fire continuously until someone discovers a disaster about to happen and shuts of the power.  



So...   DON'T WAIT UNTIL SPRING!   Take the top off of your boiler now.  Then unscrew and remove the flue collector cover and thorough examine the top of your block and the flue passages.  You will probably find a bunch of red and white crusty build up in a few areas that are indicative of a hole in the block, just above the water line.   Are you seeing an unusual amount of vapor coming out of the chimney when the boiler is firing????



I sympathise with your frustration with service people that do not know what their doing in regard to your steam system.  But you gotta take this seriously.  You may, (probably do) have a very serious situation and you seem to be blowing it off.

Dave in QCA

looks better

This picture looks better.  But, perhaps still a little bit yellow to the left side of the picture.  Better be safe than sorry.  Check out the flue passages.  Its not that hard to open it up.

Dave in QCA

Keep my fingers crossed

I hope it checks out OK.  But, You GOTTA CHECK IT OUT!!!

SWEI

TWO separate CO detectors

If they are typical UL 2034 alarms, they will not tell you much.  Even a quality electrochemical monitor will say nothing as long as the boiler has sufficient draft to keep the room negative.