Oh look what I found in my closet

ChrisJ

So as everyone knows I keep trying to refine my system more and more.  Switching to Gorton vents seems to have cured the issues I was having but while I was insulating I found this.



Back sometime around 1987 here was a fire in the livingroom of this house at which time the area was gutted, sheetrocked and apparently a coat closet was put in.  Well, I guess the coat closet was important enough to re-route this steam pipe into the closet because the wall fell in such a way that the pipe would have been dead centered in the drywall.  I guess it made more sense to do this to the pipe than to make the closet an inch smaller.....

I have two questions, 

1:  Why do people do things like this?  And why is it always in my house? :) 



2: <strong>Why does it work!?</strong>  This radiator and its piping never make a sound and with the Gorton C it heats really well.  The room is still chilly, but thats due to draft and insulation issues.  The radiator is one of the first to get steam now and completely heats all the way through often.   Looking at how its piped I'd think it could never work and would bang badly, but nothing but silence!  The two horizonal areas in the copper are maybe 8" long or so, so apparently they drain enough.

Charlie from wmass

It stays warm in the wall

this means less condensate is forming in the riser. Also it is not noise that tends to be an issue with the way it is installed. It iis limited steam input to the radiator and the pipe failing at the joints due to expansion stress over time.

icesailor

Treasures Found:

If your drawing is at all accurate, there is little space for condensate to get trapped. And like stated, it is the first radiator on the loop, and it doesn't loose a lot of of heat.

OBTW,

That was an early form of a radiant panel. A place to put your wet things to stay warm and dry.

ChrisJ

its a trap!

My opinion is there are two small areas to trap condensate. Ok, maybe not trap but they wouldn't drain completely thats for sure. Also if you look it would be possible to drop condensate into live steam. Picture condensate running out of the radiator, then naturally following the pipe and falling down 9' or so, it would fall right into live steam coming up the one elbow. Either way, apparently I'm wrong because it obviously does work and it works well. Hard to argue something when you have proof you're wrong right?



The system just did a 3 degree recovery as it does every morning and the radiator was smokin hot throughout as usual. You know, the kind of hot where if you bump it with your bare leg or arm it hurts instantly?

Hap_Hazzard

It's not just you.

You should see some of the knuckleheaded stuff they did when they put the addition on my house--not just the steam piping, but the electricity and plumbing too. I try to correct things when I can, but there are some things you just can't do over.

ChrisJ

Knuckleheading

I think I got lucky in the electrical department. Because of the fire in 87 all of the knob and tube was tore out and replaced with romex and the fusebox was replaced with a SQ QO panel which of course is my favorite. Only problem I had was they shared 2 neutrals per screw on the neutral bars so I had some work to do there.



Knob and tube wiring, theres one thing that might actually get knuckelheaded more often then steam. Perfectly safe when original, deadly when modified wrong. I wonder how many houses had their walls filled with insulated around K&T wiring.



The fire was caused by one of the previous owners falling asleep with a cigarette in the livingroom.

gerry gill

its that classic thing,

where if i did that it wouldn't work, but when some douch does, it works..go figure

Toymotorhead

Welcome to the victims of knuckleheads club, brother...

If it makes you feel any better I have a somewhat similar issue in my house. During a kitchen renovation, prior to us buying the house, a contractor moved/mangled the riser for a small 2 column 9 section radiator in my upstairs bathroom.



Instead of the original layout, it now starts with a messed up Tee and a rusty union in the basement, then up through the kitchen floor and into one of the base cabinets,(rendering it completely useless for storage) then 90s and runs horizontally (with a questionable amount of pitch) out the back of the cabinet into the stud bay, where there is another 90, then up the stud bay to just below the ceiling you hit the 3rd 90 and pop out of the wall, across the ceiling to 90 number 4 and up through the drywall, where some sort of magic (probably 90s #5 and $6) happens and it pops out in the bathroom on the 2nd floor a foot or so from where it started. No copper on this one, but it is all the cheapest galvanized you have ever seen. And rusty, and hammers, and sometimes it does not want to heat, and, and, and, and....



Cheers

Richard.

icesailor

Knob & Tube/Insulation.

Funny you should mention that. I once asked an insulater about blowing in around K&T wiring and first he said it didn't matter, then he said to mind my own business.

What about spray foaming in rim joist spaces above electrical panels where the bay becomes solid and there is no cooling air for the romex wire?

Some wonder.

ChrisJ

Romex

Not sure on romex, I do recall a rule about not running it inside conduit due to heat concerns but romex is run inside insulated walls all of the time.





But yea, K&T is designed to dissipate heat into the air, insulation is a NO NO and minding your own business could cost someone their life.

ChrisJ

Time to fix!

The time to fix this mess is finally here and we will either be notching the wall or tearing it down and rebuilding it further back so I can put the pipe back in it's proper spot.



The venting arrangement may change, but I do prefer venting my longer runouts separately from the radiator.



The white in the hole is the pipe insulation on the horizontal copper pipe just under the floor.

Hap_Hazzard

What were you doing in there?

I thought you were out of the closet. :-D



Okay, I'm sorry. I've been biting my tongue for almost a week now. I just couldn't take it anymore.

ChrisJ

Na

I'm back in. 

No need to apologize, I enjoy a good joke now and then, as long as it's not aimed at the steam system.



On a serious note, any votes on a thread sealer?  Megaloc + blue monster tape,  blue monster tape alone, or RTV?

The bottom fitting is original steel and the radiator valve I'm not concerned about really, I'm sure it'll seal nice with tape alone.

Hap_Hazzard

I'd vote for the Megaloc and tape.

That's what a lot of the pros here use, and while I'm pretty happy with my teflon pipe joint compound, they seem to know what they're doing. :-)

ChrisJ

What to do

After pulling the carpet up and pulling off the trim the hole is completely exposed.



I'm not sure what I want to do now as I was planning on notching the wall to uncover the hole. I'm going to try and cut the copper mess out without disturbing the ceiling and then drill a 3/8" hole through the ceiling from upstairs and see where it ends up.



If the hole in the ceiling works out should I just run the pipe and try and cut a new piece of trim around the pipe the best I can and call it a day? Or should I notch the wall anyway to make more room?



My concern is we're putting a floating floor down and I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to make this look acceptable with it other than maybe cutting an escutcheon to fit over it.



Speaking of escutcheons, I noticed my older ones are much larger than the pipe, but have springs to keep it stuck to the pipe. Can these be bought anywhere? All of the ones I've ever seen fit loose around the pipe and are useless against a ceiling.

jumper

condensate's path

I'm happy Chris raised this question. Seems to me that as long as condensate runs along wall of pipe we're okay. But when condensate drips into interior of pipe there's much more surface area for steam to exchange energy with condensate. This is something I think about when I have nothing to do.

ChrisJ

Why

Why is it everytime I do a project it ends up being 1000 times worse than expected?



This picture shows a red dot where the hole in the upstairs floor is and you can see the hole in the wood floor down in the corner.  At first I thought my measurements were off so I walked out side and eyed up the window where the radiator is with the door and nope, not off.  Interestingly I thought this door was added in 1987 but now I'm thinking there was either a door there, or a window in the 20s when the steam was put in.  Though I do wonder, why didn't they just move the radiator over instead of insisting it be centered under the window.  I have a similar pipe in our downstairs bathroom where they ran two 45s to shift it over near the ceiling.  I've included a picture of how this will probably have to be piped.



The floor is 100+ years old so that hole has been there a while and the upstairs wood floor is 60+ years old so again, hasn't moved.  I think my only option is some 45's and by some miracle the wife is ok with this.  I'm wondering if I can squeeze them up between the joists in the ceiling but I doubt it.



Will be placing a pexsupply order for some Ward cast iron 45's.



Any and all thoughts, recommendations and opinions are welcome!

ChrisJ

So close!

Almost done but the project is held up by a short length of pipe. I need to get a 14 1/4" length if 1" iron pipe somewhere but it seems most places won't thread something that short.





Not sure what I'm going to do now.

ChrisJ

Finished!

All finished. Got lucky and someone at another Lowes was willing to thread a 14 1/4" piece of 1". I have no idea how I managed to get the offset length right but I did. The horizontal 1 1/4" run out is almost tight to the joist now and being supported completely by the radiator so expansion noises should be gone.





Our baby's room is going to be warm this winter! I'm kind of excited to see how this radiator performs now and am expecting to have to swap the Gorton C out fo a #6.

KC_Jones

clean install

Looks great Chris, but given all the other work you have posted on here we would expect nothing less!

ChrisJ

Painting and teflon tape?

Hi KC. Thanks! I'm happy it came out as well as it did but will feel a lot better once the whole room is painted and the new floor is down.